Ta da - The Crime Gene

CM · Post by CM » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:13 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2165715.stm

Is that freaky or what?

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:20 am

I think the important points to note here are:

They also fear that governments may turn to using drugs to fight crime, rather than tackling deep-rooted social problems.

"Violence in maltreated children is a major issue. Stop the maltreatment, and don't add to the problem by layering in a new generation of so-called violence preventing drugs."

There would never be a need for drugs if these children aren't maltreated in the first place.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:25 am

Agreed sleep.
But what i found freaky, is that they are associating genes to a human action.
If that is true, the we each have the gene to be criminals, just havent hard the conditioning for it.
That sounds a bit absurd to me.

But yes if it is due to maltreatment, that is what should be targetted and not the children.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:36 am

Originally posted by CM
If that is true, the we each have the gene to be criminals, just havent hard the conditioning for it.

I would presume there is more to it than just what the BBC published, genetics is a lot more complex than the article pointed out, i have an extremely lousy knowledge of genetics but i would assume there would be more factors that effect the criminal mind not just what they specify in that article.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:44 am

I really must get some work done, but I promise I will return to this topic later if someone has question.

@CM: Behavioural genetics, which include trying to associate genes or transscription of genes to certain behaviour patterns, or rather, to probability of a certain behaviour pattern, respons pattern (like in the BBC artice) is one the most active areas in science right now. This brings lots of ethical complications, and it's popularity also brings lot of bad science IMO.

All humans except monozygotic twins (identical twins/triplets/etc) have a unique set of genes, and a unique expression of those genes. Genetecists collect large samples of DNA from different and compare them. The places where the protein sequences differ are marked, and the difference is noted. Such differences are called polymorphism, ie variants of a gene. Different polymorphisms are then correlated to other factors, for instance a behavioural factor or a disease. This study demostrates that 1/3 or the population has a special gene variant of a gene connected to low levels of MAOA. MAOA is a chemical that has been associated with antisocial behaviour, low impulse control, aggression etc for over 25 years now, so this finding is not surprising. However, as usual I hate when popular media rewrite a linkage study to "crime gene" discovered. That is not a correct interpretation of the finding. A correct interpretation is that a genetic variant carried by 1/3 of the population, is associated with a larger risk to react with violent reaction on maltreatment and bad social factors. It is not a @#$% crime gene!

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:46 am

In terms of violence-preventing drugs I have just one thing to say-legalise it!

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:46 am

Thats just a tad unsettling.

However if it leads to the increased use of medication then that would be even more disturbing.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:49 am

Ok, i have no knowledge about genes at all. But i find it weird, that people are blaming crime on a gene. Its like saying obese people are so because they have a gene. Its shirking responsibility in my opinion if everything is based on genes.

CEs response clears up alot. But to the average person, that article would ring true of a crime gene. Sloppy reporting i must say. So 1/3 of the population has a gene which in some way increases the risk of crime, but doesnt actually control the person to commit such a crime? That correct?

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:49 am

The numbers they use in that article are not exactly resoundingly conclusive either and the number of test subject is also not a large mean.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:50 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
In terms of violence-preventing drugs I have just one thing to say-legalise it!

You cant be serious!!!
Or you on your spree of legalising all drugs no matter what

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:51 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
I would presume there is more to it than just what the BBC published, genetics is a lot more complex than the article pointed out, i have an extremely lousy knowledge of genetics but i would assume there would be more factors that effect the criminal mind not just what they specify in that article.

I am happy to see such a sound reaction

What is IMO much more disturbing, is how this information is going to be used. In the US, the government has already started a project where "snip profiling" is going to be used. This works just like other criminal profiling, you take a bunch of criminals and analyse them to see what characteristics they have in common. In this case, what genetic "snips" (ie a piece of a gene) they have in common. You will then get a pattern, which is called a profile. Then you can screen anybody and compare them to this pattern to see how similar a person is to this pattern, which at the moment equals how large the risk is that this person is or will become a criminal. IMO this procedure rises major ethical questions, that have not been solved, yet the project is already running and working. And most people don't even know about it

Can you imagine all the problematic consequences...

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:53 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
In terms of violence-preventing drugs I have just one thing to say-legalise it!

Legalising presently illegal drugs will not help against violent crimes. Or were you thinking of using cannabis as a sedative, ie people get slow and dull and feel good so they don't feel like acting violent?

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:56 am

Originally posted by CM
So 1/3 of the population has a gene which in some way increases the risk of crime, but doesnt actually control the person to commit such a crime? That correct?

Exactly! The gene increases the risk of crime in people who have also been socially maltreated, mind you.

@#$% I hate popular press

CM · Post by CM » Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:05 am

Originally posted by C Elegans

Exactly! The gene increases the risk of crime in people who have also been socially maltreated, mind you.

@#$% I hate popular press

Ok thanks

But serious that article gives a very bad set of facts if you read it without any knowledge of genetics and biology.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:16 am

Originally posted by CM

You cant be serious!!!
Or you on your spree of legalising all drugs no matter what

Originally posted by C Elegans

Legalising presently illegal drugs will not help against violent crimes. Or were you thinking of using cannabis as a sedative, ie people get slow and dull and feel good so they don't feel like acting violent?

It won't stop violent crime, true, largely because cannabis users aren't, in general, violent. And while I am always waging a mild campaign to get cannabis legalised, in this case my point was mostly as CE said, cannabis provides one of the better sedatives out there with little in the way of harmful side-effects compared to many legal sedative drugs in widespread use today.

As ever I'd like to point out that the difference between cannabis and other, harder drugs is immense. Admittedly if everyone felt good then they'd be far less likely to go out and hurt people now, wouldn't they?

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:20 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
As ever I'd like to point out that the difference between cannabis and other, harder drugs is immense. Admittedly if everyone felt good then they'd be far less likely to go out and hurt people now, wouldn't they?

One has to come down at some point. Personally i think a good walk in fresh air, healthy diet and good friends will do a lot more than cannabis ever can...but i entirely digress

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:36 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep

One has to come down at some point. Personally i think a good walk in fresh air, healthy diet and good friends will do a lot more than cannabis ever can...but i entirely digress

There is that, but one can always get high again.

Funny you should mention that, I got two of the three (no healthy diet, but it's not an unhealthy diet either) and cannabis to boot. Ironically enough my favourite thing to do while high is go walking through the hills with my two best friends...Guess I'm pretty lucky, huh?

In my case I don't smoke pot to feel good, I smoke it to enhance the enjoyment I already/would get from life anyway. When it's used as a replacement (as was the case with my cousin

) cannabis is just as bad as any other substitute for happiness.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:41 am

The problem drugs, is you dont realise when it becomes the substitute for happiness. I wont see how legalizing cannabis would lower crime....but oh well on with the conversation

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:58 am

Originally posted by CM
The problem drugs, is you dont realise when it becomes the substitute for happiness. I wont see how legalizing cannabis would lower crime....but oh well on with the conversation

The trick, my friend, is to be happy and not turn to cannabis, or indeed cigarettes or alcohol, to be happy in the first place.

It would lower crime by freeing up the jail system from people who have a relatively harmless habit or who have been caught experimenting, and leave the prisons open for the real criminals.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:01 am

That is true ode. However many kids feel disillusioned with life something along the lines of sleeps cynical view point and turn to it seeing that this will make them feel better.

Also honestly i feel the destruction of the family network in the modern western society adds to this feeling of unhappiness.

brb.
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