Do people STILL believe in love?

[Mianna]

This is what conserns me...here in Finland we have plenty of bresk up stories in almost every magazine.Some people brake up no matter that they have little kids and even after 30 years of marriage life people break up. Lil´ kids start dating at the age of 10 and some girls jump in bed at the age of 12 even 11!!!They change partners like socks and they get used to it and when they meet this person who believes in love and some SERIOUS damage is being done (I experinced once, I´m glad we dated only 2 weeks, but it still hurt a LOT). I seem to have found someone who is like me but that´s that INCREDIBLE luck. Why is it like this? It´s as if people don´t believe in eternal love and that the ONE is a daydream...I still believe but if I get dissapointed again to my relationship that goes on now...I guess I´ll just start having fun. Do men of this generation think about their loved one when they go to sleep? Do women watch too much "Sex and the City"?
Silly silly thread...

[CM]

I dont believe in love at first sight. But do believe in love. Now the main problem is people believe love is all you need for a marriage. It aint. Since i aint married i wont know for sure, but i am guessing you would need to be patient, caring understanding and tolerant. Love is one of many components to make a marriage work. But 11 years jumping in the sack is freaky.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Originally posted by CM
But 11 years jumping in the sack is freaky.

Have to agree here.

I don't know whether I believe in love or not, to be honest.

[HighLordDave]

First of all, welcome to SYM!

The short answer to your question is: Yes, men still believe in love.

The long answer is, well, long (as my posts tend to be, so hang on). I think that you must also consider the fact that women and men are conditioned to respond to "love" in different ways. I believe that many women equate "sex" with "love", which men do not. I also believe that most men do not want long, committed relationships; rather, they want "convenient" relationships where women are available when the man wants them to be and disappear when he doesn't want them around. Women on the other hand, have entirely different wants and men generally do not have the same.

I also believe that we have an overly-romanticised view of marriage. Remember that the idea of marrying or partnering with someone for love is a fairly recent phenomenon. While romantic love is an old story, in many western countries arranged marriages were the norm until as recently as 100 years ago, and are still practiced in some parts of the world.

I think we are experiencing a culture lag when it comes to marriage and relationships. "Til death do us part" is a lot longer today than it was 100 years ago because 1 in 3 women are no longer dying from complications resulting from childbirth. Men are also living longer because we are generally fighting fewer wars, there are lower rates of other violent death, and we have fewer work-related deaths.

Since the availability of birth control became widespread in the 60s, women are also more empowered with their sexuality, but our cultural mores are still rooted in ideas from "the good old days" (which weren't all that good, by the way). In the 70s and 80s, many people began circulating the idea that divorce was good (the idea being that it's better to be out of an unhealthy relationship than to remain married just to be married), so the old social stigma attached to divorce has disappeared.

It is my opinion that many people get divorced as a first resort, instead of the last. However, I also think that people start relationships and get married with unrealistic expectations. There must be some balance between the way we think of marriage/partnership and the way it actually works out.

[McBane]

I have 2 friends who divorced within 5 years of marriage, and the underlying theme in each was that neither couple worked enough at the relationship. The first sign of trouble and everyone wanted to give up. (One friend is happily divorced, the other is not) Having a successful long term relationship requires alot of communication and effort. And it takes effort from both parties. IMHO people seem too self absorbed and are not willing to "give" in a relationship.

[Dottie]

I have never belived in love, if someone could explaine to me what it is I would be most grateful.

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by Dottie
I have never belived in love, if someone could explaine to me what it is I would be most grateful.

You obviously haven't listened to enough Barry White

Seriously i have never been in love so i am not really a good judge of it's mechanics, i would like to believe it exists though

[Beldin]

Love ?

Welcome to SYM, the home of the cynics !

Well - I DO believe in long-term or even "livelong" partnership, but I do NOT believe in neverending love as in "butterflies in the stomach and pink clouds all the way" .

An actual lasting partnership is SO MUCH MORE than just your hormones acting up (which it is the beginning of most relationships).

No one can expect to last the feeling of the "first euphoria (sp?]" to last for decades. You have to WORK on a relationship. It has to be an economic partnership as well as an emotional and spiritual joining. And please DON'T ever confuse SEX with LOVE. it is absolutely possible to have one without the other. (YES it is. Fact. ) . So changing sexual partners doesn't mean that no one believes in long term commitment anymore - maybe the people who change their partners frequently have just not found the right person to be commited to -YET.

- and young teenagers hopping "in the sack" at age 11 are NOT "in love" - it's just "their hormones acting up" - they're not really emotionally or intellectually equipped to deal with the demands of a partnership - the're just "trying out " their bodies
( - and apparently their parents have in some way neglected their duties in "letting it happen". - But that's just MY POV. )

No worries,

Beldin

[Dottie]

Originally posted by Mr Sleep

Seriously i have never been in love so i am not really a good judge of it's mechanics, i would like to believe it exists though

Same here, though it seem the feeling people call love can always be derived from other feelings or needs. I suspect love is a big cultural hoax.

An actual lasting partnership is SO MUCH MORE than just your hormones acting up (which it is the beginning of most relationships).

No one can expect to last the feeling of the "first euphopria8sp?]" to last for decades. You have to WORK on a relationship. It has to be an economic partnership as well as an emotional and spiritual joining. And please DON'T ever confuse SEX with LOVE. it is absolutely possible to have one without the other. (YES it is. Fact. ) . So changing sexual partners doesn't mean that no one believes in long term commitment anymore - maybe the people who change their partners frequently have just not found the right person to be commited to -YET.

I dont know if this was directed to me, I certainly dont claim that what people call love and sex is the same. But I have no problems to, for myself, explaine love as a couple of other feelings and abilities with no loss of content (as I percieve it, no doubt my capacity here is limited in the same way mr. Sleeps is)

[Beldin]

Originally posted by Dottie


I dont know if this was directed to me, I certainly dont claim that what people call love and sex is the same. But I have no problems to, for myself, explaine love as a couple of other feelings and abilities with no loss of content (as I percieve it, no doubt my capacity here is limited in the same way mr. Sleeps is)

@Dottie - no it wasn't directed at you or someone else in particular. I just wanted to get my Point Of View across to anyone who might be interested.

No worries,


Beldin

[thantor3]

Well, this is certainly an interesting topic…

I agree with many of the things that HLD said in his post. I think there is a significant cultural and developmental component to an individual's appreciation and understanding about "love". I do believe that men and women are socialized differently, which accentuates the gender differences in the way they process, integrate and perceive information and their environment. When conversations like this unfold, I think people fail to grasp the different developmental tracks that men and women take. In my own experience, I believe it takes men longer to "ripen" -- that is, to get to the place where they have worked through sexual, intimacy, power, and gender issue to arrive at a place where they can have a successful relationship. My wife told me once of a seminar she went to where the speaker asked the predominantly female audience to look at the person to their right. He then asked them to consider what kind of torture, brain washing, and manipulation it would take to get them to kill that person just because they felt this person was threatening their femininity. When that had sunk in, the instructor said, simply, that this is the type of programming men in this culture are exposed to every day in order that society can slot them into the roles they are expected to fulfill. My wife said that this experience was very powerful for her because she began to understand how isolated men really are, why they have problems with intimacy, and why it takes so much work for them to be successful in a relationship.

I also think that most people never emerge from adolescence, and thus never really step into an adult view of "love". We don't have a choice about emerging from childhood (though some do it kicking and screaming), since nature forces us into adolescence. But a similar process does not occur as far as being an adult. Which means evolving into an adult is a choice … a choice which apparently most people do not make, given the current state of the world. The difference between an adult and an adolescent is clearly indicated in the way they view and internalize "love". The adolescent view of love is concerned with love as an emotion, with love as an experience of gratification, with love as the "happily ever after" fantasy that they were always promised by the romantic mythology of our culture. And this is not to disparage this, since can be a wonderful initial phase of any relationship. IMO, however, a lasting and successful relationship requires an adult perspective of love. Transcending the simple "love as an emotion" model of the adolescent, the adult view of love - which I will summarize as the appreciation of love as a force -- places this experience in a completely different context. Now love is something linked to the rhythms of nature, the inner life force, and the movements of the divine. Love is no longer completely possessed by the individual but something powerful in its own right, just as electricity and gravity are forces that we use but also respect as something not quite under our control. Love becomes something larger than the individual self, something of which one can be of service, something that requires life-long learning and devotion. Unlike the adolescent, who in a crisis can easily be overwhelmed, the adult is fully grounded in their experience, able to put aside their individual needs for the great good, and has the power, strength, and experience to do whatever is required of them. As the Course in Miracles says: "No course whose purpose is to teach you to remember what your really are could fail to emphasize that there can never be a difference in what you really are and what love is."

My point, Mianna, is not to confuse the adolescent interactions you see around you with the dynamics of what love can truly be…

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Good post, Than.

[The Z]

I'd like to believe love does exist (in a romantic sense)....but what I really believe is that love is too abstract and complex to be just figured out. I mean, I know a couple who are fourteen, and they do not *try out their bodies*, they genuinely are responsible and caring for eachother. They fulfill eachother's needs and appear to have found *true love*. What I'm hypothesizing is that love "just happens" to people who're in the right environment. It's a rare and abstract concept that can't be fully understood because it can't really be defined.

[Aegis]

IMHO, Loves dead. At the age of 17, I can honestly say I have loved (refer to some of my other more depressing topics for further information). Love is merely a fairy tale people wish to have in this modern era, but like all Fairy Tales, it can never happen. While older couples have it, it is impossible for someone of my generation (Generation Y) to love another. That is because of the emphasis placed on sex, and flings. Emotions are never a leading factor anymore, because if they were, I would be with the girl of my dreams right now (As she said she had similar emotions... whata a load of bull that was ) and I would be happy. Instead, love is merely something that is intangable and leads to heart ache. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some brooding to get back to.

[HighLordDave]

Originally posted by Dottie
I have never belived in love, if someone could explaine to me what it is I would be most grateful.

Cynic.

In many instances I agree that love is a hoax or cultural chimera, but I also think it's real. I believe that many people look for love to fill voids in their lives that are unfillable and that we are socialised with unrealistic expectations. I also think that many people get their ideas about love from TV and magazines, so their views are skewed.

That said, I do believe in love, although I do not believe in soulmates and I do not believe in love at first sight. I think that what most people fail to understand is that romantic love requires effort to maintain. Passion and romance fade and relationships are something that require a lot of investment and maintenance. I believe that many people do not realise just how much energy a marriage/partnership entail and are overwhelmed when confronted with that reality.

What birth control and safe sex have done is made sex a recreational activity. Whereas many people used to fear that sex outside of a marriage would result in children, sex today is more than just procreative in nature. People, both men and women, can have casual sex without fear of pregnancy and without fear of contracting a venereal disease.

(Addendum to the above statement: While many people know about having safe sex, many people do not practice safe sex 100% of the time. This is sometimes the result of "the heat of the moment", general carlessness or a false feeling of invincibility. In this day and age, there is absolutely no reason for "accidental" pregnancies or transmission of venereal diseases because measures exist for people who are willing to protect themselves to have as much casual sex as they want without fear of repercussion. Having said that, many people fail to educate themselves and become committed to practicing safe sex all the time.)

So to address our friend Dottie's question: What is love?

In the short term, love is passionate and romantic. It is not just a primal sexual urge, but it is the butteflies in your stomach before a date. It's waking up alone in the morning and wishing that your special someone were next to you. It's calling someone on the phone for no reason other than to hear the sound of their voice. It's taking someone to the airport and crying because you're parting. Love is planning your future together.

In the long term, love is constant and understanding. It's having a knock-down, drag-out argument one night and still sleeping in the same bed (hopefully for some make-up sex). It's watching your kids grow up. It's being able to shop together for a new couch and carpet. It's having two identities: you as an individual and you as one piece of a partnership. Love is looking back at your life together and not having any regrets.

These days, it's is very easy to get married, and it's very easy (if expensive) to get divorced. I think that many people get married for the wrong reasons, and they enter into relationships with one person expecting one thing and the other expecting something entirely different. Love is not something that people talk about; there's a lot of "I know it when I see it" but in many instances, what they see/feel isn't love, it's the chimera I was talking about.

[The Z]

Perhaps love doesn't work in modern day life......

[Tybaltus]

Well heres my opinion:

I think love exists, its just hard to find. I think those who divorced eachother never, once loved eachother mutually. They may have reached a state close to love, but I really dont think they were in love. I also have never been in love, but certainly it could be possible that I do eventually fall in love with a girl and she will feel the same way about me. I think a reason why the divorce rate is so high is because people are either rushing in, or they just want sex, sex, and more sex, which, alone, will not get you anywhere. And maybe divorces wouldnt happen if people were more understanding a patient, two ideals that have faded away recently. People are selfish now, and I believe chivalry is dead, but thats a different subject alltogether.

[HighLordDave]

Originally posted by The Z
Perhaps love doesn't work in modern day life......

It does, but as Beldin and I have said before, both you and your partner must be willing to put forth the time and energy into nuturing your love.

I went out with a girl in high school and we stayed together for over five years. She was, in many ways, my ideal mate: kind, funny, smart, and pretty. Unfortunately, we ended up going to different colleges and for three years we maintained a long-distance relationship. That's what killed our relationship and our love. We simply spent a very important part of our lives in two different places, not just geographically but personally. At 21, we were both much different people than we were at 16. We broke up because we grew apart and not together.

I am convinced (since I don't believe in soulmates) that if we had spent those three years together and had a chance to become adults in the same environment, we would have spent a lot of time and energy maintaining our relationship instead of on other things.

You get out of love what you put into it (and more). I think many people are not willing, or do not know how, to make that investment and so when their relationship fails they give up on love.

(Mind you in Aegis's case, he was not the one who did not invest in the relationship, but it takes two and if your partner is not putting forth the same amount of energy, the relationship will fail.)

[Georgi]

Originally posted by Aegis
it is impossible for someone of my generation (Generation Y) to love another. That is because of the emphasis placed on sex, and flings. Emotions are never a leading factor anymore

Well jeez, it's not as though you're generalising about the whole of your generation based on just one bad personal experience you've had...

I think HLD puts it nicely.

[The Z]

@HLD: Would the line "Whatever you put in is what you get out" apply?