What follows death? (no spam)

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed Jul 10, 2002 12:10 am

Re: What follows death?

Originally posted by EMINEM
Judgment for the way you lived your life on earth. Definitely not something to look forward to (which might explain why so many refuse to even contemplate the notion), but I think being held accountable for what you've done and what you've failed to do, makes perfect sense given that good and evil, right and wrong exist, and we have freedom to choose between the two. If there is no form of judgment that takes place after you die, it makes no difference whether you lived like a saint or a devil.

I'm not so sure that good and evil, right and wrong do exist. It's all a matter of perspective. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing by exterminating the Jews. Dubyah doubtless thinks he's doing the right thing in his policies. Hence it doesn't really make a difference how you lived your life except in how you will be remembered.
This is just my opinion, you understand, based upon my own experiences and observations.

Just out of curiousity, why is judgement a thing to be feared? Accepting a dual notion of good and evil, presumably if you live your life more good than evil you'll be fine come judgement.

EDIT

Tam-At least we'll get coffee when ever we want.

Valhalla could be fun too. save me a good seat if you get there first.

Eerhardt · Post by **Eerhardt** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 12:16 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Just out of curiousity, why is judgement a thing to be feared? Accepting a dual notion of good and evil, presumably if you live your life more good than evil you'll be fine come judgement.

Hence the problem

. I don't know how Eminem feels about this, but I am lead to believe that good deeds weigh more heavily than evil ones. If you take into account every time you had a big argument, hurt somebody, didn't do enough to help your fellow man,... it would be very hard to keep balance, without all the good things weighing more. The Bible also states that every good deed you do will be rewarded 10-fold. I interpret this that a good deed outweighs an evil one (not necessarily by 10 times, but you get the meaning).

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed Jul 10, 2002 12:22 am

Let's say that it's all based on intent, then. I'm sure there's some line in the bible that says something along the lines of it's the thought that counts, or somesuch.
In that case it seems to me that the number of "good" deeds would in many cases outweigh the number of "bad" deeds, and hence come judgement or whatever (I disagree with the notion of judgement too, but that's neither here nor there) many people will just cruise on through to their haloes and wings.

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:30 am

Re: What follows death?

Originally posted by EMINEM
Judgment for the way you lived your life on earth. Definitely not something to look forward to (which might explain why so many refuse to even contemplate the notion), but I think being held accountable for what you've done and what you've failed to do, makes perfect sense given that good and evil, right and wrong exist, and we have freedom to choose between the two. If there is no form of judgment that takes place after you die, it makes no difference whether you lived like a saint or a devil.

@Eminem: Just a question - do you (personally) really believe that your god is just some kind of "angry old man" who passes relentless judgement on you ? I seems kind of an "low" occupation for such a supreme being.
Aren't you doing your god injustice by believing he is nothing but a clerk, keeping track of how many lollies you stole as a kid ?

I'm not really a believer, but IF I try to imagine "my" god I just can't bring myself to see him as an accountant - if he (or she) is really a surpreme being which created us he's BOUND to forgive us - after all HE made the world what it is today, and therefore we can't be held responsible for HIS mess...

Honestly - an ALL-POWERFUL god has by definition ALSO to be an ALL-FORGIVING god. Otherwise he'd be nothing less than a PUNISHER, a HEADSMAN - an ANGRY god who hurls thunderbolts at mortals....a choleric (sp?) in other words, and I really can't imagine a choleric god..

No worries,

Beldin

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:38 am

Re: Re: What follows death?

Originally posted by Beldin
Honestly - an ALL-POWERFUL god has by definition ALSO to be an ALL-FORGIVING god. Otherwise he'd be nothing less than a PUNISHER, a HEADSMAN - an ANGRY god who hurls thunderbolts at mortals....a choleric (sp?)

Hmm, that doesn't sound about right...

Eerhardt · Post by **Eerhardt** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:46 am

Originally posted by Beldin
...if he (or she) is really a surpreme being which created us he's BOUND to forgive us - after all HE made the world what it is today, and therefore we can't be held responsible for HIS mess...

Sorry for budging in, Beldin, but I'd like to answer to this too. The responsibility of man and God is a topic that has been discussed over centuries. Look at it this way: when God created man according to Christian Religion (I'm not debating the creation of man as such right now), he could have done so in 2 ways. Either he gave man no free will and turned him into a mindless puppet for worshipping Him/Her, òr he gave man a free will to accept or reject His/Her own existence and consequently carry the responsibility for his own actions. Then there's the subject of "why doesn't God intervene when things go wrong if He/She is supposed to be all-powerful?". Could man really have free will, if God would just intervene every time he did something "wrong" in the eyes of God? If he had God to guide him by his hand?

Originally posted by Beldin
Honestly - an ALL-POWERFUL god has by definition ALSO to be an ALL-FORGIVING god. Otherwise he'd be nothing less than a PUNISHER, a HEADSMAN - an ANGRY god who hurls thunderbolts at mortals....a choleric (sp?) in other words, and I really can't imagine a choleric god..

Good point. We do believe God is all-forgiving. However, Christian doctrine does require you to feel remorse, in order to be forgiven. I know it's a delicate subject since it may seem like you can "get away with anything" this way, which obviously shouldn't be possible. But if you feel you "got away with it", would you feel genuine remorse? I wanted to clarify this from my personal, Christian POV. No worries (copyright@Beldin),
E.

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:47 am

Re: Re: Re: What follows death?

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Hmm, that doesn't sound about right...

Please define "doesn't sound about right" .... I don't know WHAT you're refering to...

No worries,

Beldin

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:54 am

I was just commenting that surely the image of God as a petulant being who seems to exist largely in order to punish couldn't be anywhere near the truth, now, could it?

It must be coincidence that He comes across that way...

EDIT-No offence @Eerhardt.

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:58 am

Originally posted by Eerhardt

Good point. We do believe God is all-forgiving. However, Christian doctrine does require you to feel remorse, in order to be forgiven. I know it's a delicate subject since it may seem like you can "get away with anything" this way, which obviously shouldn't be possible. But if you feel you "got away with it", would you feel genuine remorse? I wanted to clarify this from my personal, Christian POV. No worries (copyright@Beldin),
E.

No problem Eerhardt.... I like a good discussion...

What I was trying to say is that anyone who sees god as a "surpreme court" is in my POV belittling god... just because IF god is unforgiving he wouldn't be better than any of us. He would be - well - HUMAN.

Another thing that keeps nagging me is -if I choose NOT to feel remorse - and god casts me into hell - for eternal torment - wouldn't he thus violate his own commandments ? You know - like in "Thou shallt love each other" ? So he wouldn't be better than I am...

On a lighter note:

And what if I'm a believer in reincarnation... (even if I'was christianed and paid lip service in his churches) ...I wouldn't fall into his jurisdiction then...he can't pass judgement over me if I'm not accepting this court.....but that's just a joke of course....

No worries,

Beldin

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:00 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
I was just commenting that surely the image of God as a petulant being who seems to exist largely in order to punish couldn't be anywhere near the truth, now, could it?
It must be coincidence that He comes across that way...

Ok. Then you understood what I meant to say...

No worries, I just wanted to make sure there's no misunderstanding.

Beldin

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:06 am

Originally posted by Beldin

Ok. Then you understood what I meant to say...

No worries, I just wanted to make sure there's no misunderstanding.

Beldin

Of course.

We think alike in this respect, why should we not understand each other this time?

There've been enough topics like this by now, goodness knows.

Now we need to post a good picture of the Discworld Death...

Eerhardt · Post by **Eerhardt** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:23 am

Thanks mate

- first of all, if Fable feels we're getting side-tracked here, he can just PM me, and I'll save our posts to post in another thread, before deleting them

.

Ok, I have already admitted that in Christian religion God is not the unforgiving bastard some think Him/Her to be

If you choose NOT to feel remorse, I suppose it would depend on the severity and the amount of acts you choose not to feel remorse about. I really can't say how many things you can do wrong without feeling remorse, before being sent to Hell (another abstract concept to me). Unlike another member of the forum, I have no intent of claiming to be God and passing judgement in His/Her name

.

Even though it pains God, if you're incorrible God *will* send you to Hell or the purgatory, which is not to say that God doesn't love you. Even a loving father/mother punishes his/her children.

Then, on a last note, people raised by parents who don't believe in God can not be punished by God for not believing in Him/Her. I don't even think God will punish you for willfully rejecting to believe in Him/Her when you try to live your life in spirit of his will. Of course, this is where opinions will differ, even within Christianity itself (e.g. fundamentalists may believe you go to Hell for not believing in God)
E.

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:28 am

Originally posted by Eerhardt

Even a loving father/mother punishes his/her children.
E.

BUT - and that's the point - a parent doesn't punish his child with eternal and painful torment....

but I'm just picking words now...

I'll wait for M&M's answer for somethng more elaborate....I don't want to repeat myself...

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:32 am

The way I see it, is if God truly is forgiving, then even if you choose to live according to your own morals it shouldn't be a problem, so long as those values are 'good', as in they don't cause pain or trouble for other people.
The Dalai Lama summed it up when he said people should just try to 'live well, and respect others' (IIRC).

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 5:15 am

My answer to the original question: probably nothing.
But, from nothing, I came into existance AT LEAST ONCE.
So, who knows?????

Maybe I'll have the coscience of another being, one day.

In any case, I expect no rewards or punishments for my acts.
I judge them for what they are, hence comes ethic, IMHO.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 9:26 am

man, god?

Man created god in his likeliness.

There is an invisible man up in the sky watching everything you do, all the time, everywhere. He has built a place of burnign flame and torture to send you to if you dont obey his rules, and he loves you. He forgives the sinner but punishes the sin, yet still you go to hell?

God gave man free will? Free will is the ability to do what you wish, with the knowledge of gods rules you loose your chance to have free will because you are no living a life directed by how some large invisible personin the sky wants you too. Now I dont believe at all when you do you go to some great holy heaven place, no saint peter nope not at all.

Personally in the words of George carlin, Im going to worship the sun. It gives me life, warmth, and its there. I can see it. And my prayers to the sun work about the same amount my friends prayers to his christian god work too. So when I die, Im going to be worm food. But while I live, I refuse to be fodder for blind faith.

viva la biblebabble.com my new found friend.

thug

CM · Post by CM » Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:26 am

Dang i wanted to join in the slurrs discussion. Oh well. What are my views of after death? Well that would be the islamic ones, with saying. Why do i feel like i am the token Muslim boy on this forum?

I believe that all people will be judged at the day of judgement. All shall rise and be judged. Till then Muslims are not sure what happens to the souls of people. I believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe that there is life after death... i do not believe in reincarnation, but that is a seperate thread....According to sayings of the prophet, people do enter heaven before judgement day. This has been recorded numerous times. So a personal belief is that some are judged and sent to heaven and hell, only the majority are set in limbo where they await Allahs Judgement. But Islam is not solid on this. So honestly i believe in life after death. Just dont know where we go, limbo might be it.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 9:39 am

Originally posted by Beldin

BUT - and that's the point - a parent doesn't punish his child with eternal and painful torment....

What, you mean putting someone through unconceivably endless pain, day after day, year after year, century after century, doesn't constitute aversion therapy...?

Sorry. My bad, or as the RCC would have it, Mea culpa.

I never could understand why any deity, much less one claiming to have created and "informed" everything in the universe, would create unending torture. It's horribly, ridiculously psychotic, and (IMO) clearly a cultural belief that stems from the same all-too-human impulse to demonize one's enemies, or to rejoice in their destruction. I have never comprehended hell.

For that matter, I have never comprehended heaven, though for a different reason. I can't see getting so spiritually close to one's deity without experiencing an intense pain that would come from 1) sensing perfection, 2) realizing one's imperfection, and 3) knowing that perfection was unattainable (in those specific religious systems). So I guess you could say that I can see a sort of mixture of heaven and hell after death as a possibility: experiencing a nearness to one's deity as great pain outside of any limited, human notions of time, until such imperfections are either burnt away, or the individual flees into...well, some other dream. Just my POV.

Vinin · Post by **Vinin** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:03 am

hmmm back to the original question because I have no thoughts on this talk of "God"
Well I think that you go into the earth and you stay there to decay and help the next era of living things go on.