Human monsters

[C Elegans]

Re: Just a thought that might be wierd......

Originally posted by The Z
Perhaps now that it is theorized you can use DNA to tell if one is more prone to criminal activity, maybe we could take an infant and have scientists study their genes and environment. If their surroundings might provoke violent acts, and their DNA is a positive "more criminal likely" result, than they could send them to a different place, one that can bring up children "properly". Again, just a thought that probably has millions of moral issues that I'm not that inclined to talk about (we already have tonnes of moral 'weight' in this thread already).

The idea of using DNA snip analysis to tell whether an individual would be more prone to criminal activities than another individual, has been discussed recently in media and in the scientific community as well. The issue was up for discussion at a genetics conference I attended recently, and none of the geneticists present thought it was even remotely possible to perform meaningful analysis of this kind today. On the contrary, with current knowledge, the risk for horrible mistakes labelling certain groups based on this snip technique, is overwhelming. DNA-based prediction of criminals is only a dream yet...

[RandomThug]

A little late

Like many others I have just read the first post, gone through a couple others and had to post... while I am far behind the argument if thier is one I would Like to post an opinion from my side..

I live in southern California. USA. I witnessed the riots rather a few blocks from where my dad works, I have seen people violently stab other people in the neck and I have been shot at once before in my life. I have been jumped several times, once where they crushed my ankle into tiny pieces (Jumped on my leg while resting my ankle on a parking curb).

I know the sins of some are to far for forgiveness, while others are not. In the case of the first post thier sins are no longer sins of a man, rather an animal. In essence we are all beasts, just with a little more ability to rationalize.

Some people cant, those who cant do such horrific things as first said. They loose the title of humanity and retrain back into beasts. Which is why the death penalty is NOT a bad thing in such case, actually to be honest merciless murdering of them in my opinion (assassination without being clean and kind, the gun to side of head kind) isnt wrong.

Its sad when bad things happen, but we have to remeber not everyone can be saved, and the world isn't getting better each and everyday, exspecially down here.

Thug

[JackOfClubs]

I would like to propose the following outline to those who think there is no solution to this problem:

Societies exist on the basis of trust, but governments are necessary because people are fallible and, often, dishonest. The purpose of government is to protect life and property, thus providing a minimal basis for trust. As such all punishment should be aimed at making restitution to the victim where possible, and to protecting society from further harm where not.

So thieves should have to pay back at least twice what they stole, once to restore the property, and again to restore the trust they have broken.

Murderers and rapists cannot restore what they have destroyed so their case must be handled by a higher court which can dispense divine justice. Their lives are forfeit, but their remorse may be taken into account at that higher level.

In a just society the following punishments would be appropriate:

Crimes against life and liberty: death
Crimes against property: restitution
Crimes against self: no punishment
Thought crimes and other victimless crimes: social disapproval with no legal consequences

However, since governments are as fallible (and dishonest ) as the people they govern, strict limits must be put on their ability to oppress the people they are instituted to protect. Thus high standards of evidence, separation between the judicial and the police, juries of citizens, and courts of appeal are needed to ensure that due process is followed. Once these high standards are met we have to hope for the best, understanding that no system will ever be perfect.

Would I be willing to be put to death in such a society, even if innocent? You bet! Far more than I would be willing to spend my life in prison. I will always value freedom and justice over my own life.

Finally, (@mental_nomad especially) one of the consequences of our hesitation to enforce the death penalty on violent criminals is that they tend to dominate the prison culture and prey on the lesser criminals (and falsely accused innocents for that matter). Ever meet anyone like that? If you've been inside, I think you know the type I'm talking about. I don't lose a lot of sleep worrying if they can be rehabilitated.

[The Z]

@CE
Yes, you're right obviously. I guess I was thinking too much about Minority Report

@The rest
I don't think there's any logical solution to fix what's happening with justice nowadays. Although I'll be long since passed before they do anything, my stance is wait and see if there's another way. Right now nothing we can think of will correct injustice or anything that is more viable than capital punishment. Also, I think that each person here is too set in their beliefs to be swayed to another side in the arguement.

[Littiz]

It happened two years ago. There has been talk again about this
'cause there has been the sentence.
But it's not a closed matter of course.
Their legals claim that they'll procede with the legal ways to
reduce what they got.
I'm petrified by such words.
How can a crime like this even be incanalated in the normal course
of laws????
So laws are just a CHAIN we tie OURSELF with?!?
Now we spare their life, I agree too, but if was there AT THAT MOMENT,
and had I had the strenght, I would have killed them with my hands
and I'd have crushed their dead bodies!
And then some lawyer would have appeared and told me that I was
GUILT of murdering and PROFANATION!!!!
I HATE LAWS!!!!!!!

I was very shocked when I heard it, tried to imagine the moment..
Even assuming I was willing to do what they wanted, even assuming
I got mad and searched for a way out...
The cries and the panic of the little child should in any case
have stopped them, forcin' them to think "what are we doing?!?!?"
How can one remain untouched by the despair of a child??
And set her on fire...

I never believed in the "insanity" theory for criminals. Of course,
mental insanity exists, but it's not at all tied with evilness...
I've seen people with mental sickness, but they were, as we say,
"good as bread".
I fear evilness is just innate... but I would call it un-empathy...
Total incapacity to partecipate of sufferings (or emotions in general)
of other people.

[Delacroix]

By Littiz:

...but if was there AT THAT MOMENT,
and had I had the strenght, I would have killed them with my hands
and I'd have crushed their dead bodies!

By Littiz:
I fear evilness is just innate...

See paradox. There is no such thing as innate evilness.

By Littiz:
So laws are just a CHAIN we tie OURSELF with?!?

Certanly, but the chains also protect us.

By Littiz:
I never believed in the "insanity" theory for criminals. Of course,
mental insanity exists, but it's not at all tied with evilness...
I've seen people with mental sickness, but they were, as we say,
"good as bread".

The evilness is only your valoration of the fact. The insanes are distant of society moral.
And is not a simply unfounded theory, some who suffer of mental sickness are very dangerous. Not criminals.

[JackOfClubs]

Originally posted by mental_nomad
Yes I have. I believe I mentioned in an earlier post on another thread I had experienced violence. I was cut by two other inmates...which I might add were in jail for selling pot. As far as I understand it..I have two brothers who are prison guards and two more who have done time...More criminals come out of prison that go in...

This illustrates my point. If drugs were not considered intrinsically criminal, these folks might never have been in prison to harm you. (Note my comments about victimless crimes.) My guess would be that they became violent either through contact with organized crime on the streets or in prison itself. I think we can agree that legalizing drugs would have reduced or prevented the danger that you experienced from them.

And as to assigning a higher court to despense your "Divine Justice" .... am I correct...you desire to make men Gods? Yet at same time you think your personal freedom means everything to you? I take it you think government is a benign protective power established for the good of all

No, no, you have completely misunderstood my point. Sorry if I wasn't clear but I did try to be very specific on this point. I explictly said that governments are as flawed and possibly dishonest as the people that make them up. This is an argument for limited government with guaranteed rights of citizens to protest and appeal.

However, limited doesn't mean powerless. If you don't have a government that strong enough to redress wrongs, then the thugs will rule. Power does not abide a vaccuum. As Thomas Paine said we only have a choice between ruling ourselves or being ruled by a hostile power.

My appeal to a higher court was in the context of crimes that cannot be redressed on earth. We cannot give a murder victim his life back, the divine justice I refer to is not therefore dispensed by human governments. However, allowing the murderer to live is tantamount to sanctioning his crime.

Having said that, I must agree with you and the others on this thread that governments must be held strictly acountable to high standards of evidence before such a conviction is made. I merely challenge the notion that innocent people are routinely executed. The fact that you were released (albeit after an unjust time in prison) proves that in your case at least the system did not commit that worst of errors.

And to everyone who says they are more than willing...to BE that innocent...that it is really worth the price for a government controled society..you talk theory. Pure and simple. Some idealised statement that is easy to make in the secret firm belief that "it will never happen to me"

"Everyone"? You are being presumptous. How can you possibly know what courage others are capable of or what they have suffered? Around the world people are suffering for their "ideals", if you want to call it that, and not all of them have become cynical. If I do not speak of my own past, it is because I do not believe that victimhood automatically grants credibility.

Also, let me reiterate that I am not advocating a "government controlled society". There must be strict limits on government and the people should be given every freedom to defend themselves. (BTW: I like your point awhile back about the gun laws in Texas reducing crime. I think you might be interested to note that John Lott's study found that there were actually two causes for the drop: concealed carry gun laws and increased probability of arrest for criminal activity.)

[Littiz]

@Delacroix:
See? Exactly what I meant.
With arguing, speeches, logic and whatever you can change
the cards on the table.
This what is permitted by laws.
I'm not telling that schemes and order are useless, but
sometimes we should be able to understand the right things
with the simple knowing from inside.
It's clear that the act of mine, even with some sort of guilt,
would come pure righteous and savage anger for a cruel murdering.
Evilness is a cruel, cold, act against a child.

I know what one could say next, they too could have been
in a sort of altered state, or maybe they were mentally sick
indeed.
But they were four (or five..), so they had to have the
SAME sickness: evilness, indeed.
By all means, at least they planned to use violence on her.

[Azmodan]

i happen to read the 2 first pages. before i had to speak my mind!.

i will not discuss the death penalty. because i think it is WRONG!. and just wrong.

but check this out....

Brian Denke

i find this link (issue) very disturbing!.