H0w d4r3 j00..

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 4:34 pm

Originally posted by Georgi
ROFL@Sleepy Do you think you would make that much sense?

I are tink not

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 4:42 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
I are tink not

Hmmm, actually that wouldn't make all that much difference from when you converse in English...

Vinin · Post by **Vinin** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 4:45 pm

HEHEHE. Thats what i sounded like when I started to learn english. It was so very confusing. I asked things like "may i use please your sink to pee in" Stupid translation of Chinese-English book. And I think it should be called l337 with all following the lang, l337ers.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:48 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep

Shouldn't that be "program to teach people"

Have patiance with me, im teaching... well perhaps not, But you get the general idea.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:50 pm

So, whats being said, is that because L337 is not a world recognized language (and it is a language, just as much as Binary and Hex), it's not really a language? That seems a little narrow minded, no offense meant of course. L337 is something that was started by a series of gamers who wished to speak in their own language, much like how some people got together and creat "Pig Latin"

I feel L337 is just as deserving to have aplace in this board, as dutch, or Swedish, the only difference, is that only a handful can speak it.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:10 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
So, whats being said, is that because L337 is not a world recognized language (and it is a language, just as much as Binary and Hex), it's not really a language?

I guess you are reffering to ascii codes here? Then I must say I dont think that can be classified as a language either, as it cant convey any information on its own.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:12 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
So, whats being said, is that because L337 is not a world recognized language (and it is a language, just as much as Binary and Hex), it's not really a language? That seems a little narrow minded, no offense meant of course. L337 is something that was started by a series of gamers who wished to speak in their own language, much like how some people got together and creat "Pig Latin"

Pig Latin isn't a language, either. It simply distorts an already existing language. l337, like Coc!ney slang, is a jargon for a group of insiders. It uses words, concepts, structures and syntax from another language, and merely substitutes different writing symbols (again, drawn from a common, preexisting bank of symbols within a prexisting linguistic group). I'm not saying this to diss it. There are simply very clear factors that have to be adhered to for something to be a language, and l337 doesn't come anywhere fulfilling these.

@Aegis, it's a little like somebody coming to me and saying, "Hi, I'm a licensed medical doctor in the US." But if he isn't licensed, he's not a licensed medical doctor, and my saying so isn't anything more than a statement of fact.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:24 pm

Originally posted by fable

Pig Latin isn't a language, either. It simply distorts an already existing language. l337, like Coc!ney slang, is a jargon for a group of insiders. It uses words, concepts, structures and syntax from another language, and merely substitutes different writing symbols (again, drawn from a common, preexisting bank of symbols within a prexisting linguistic group). I'm not saying this to diss it. There are simply very clear factors that have to be adhered to for something to be a language, and l337 doesn't come anywhere fulfilling these.

All French is is a series of letters of the alphabet, rearranged from their english counter parts to form differant syllabols(sp) and sounds. Is French and English so different, aside from how they sound? L337 is the same way, it is, in a sense, an expanded form of Hex, a Hybrid of Hex and English, if you will.

But, by saying L337 is not a language, is the same as saying Binary and Hex are not languages, yet they are recognized as a computer language, which is what L337 is.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:46 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aegis
All French is is a series of letters of the alphabet, rearranged from their english counter parts to form differant syllabols(sp) and sounds. Is French and English so different, aside from how they sound?

Absolutely. Each distinct language is a code which, at its simplest, includes a solid group of long-established rules that define what each word and phrase means, how words can be combined to make new words, how words can through syntax acquire a hierarchy of meanings, etc. French is distantly related to English, which accounts for the similarities; but the two languages are philologically distinctive. Note, too, that for a language to be considered itself, it must have evolved its own words, and maintained itself for a given period of time, usually a hundred years; some would say, more.

But, by saying L337 is not a language, is the same as saying Binary and Hex are not languages, yet they are recognized as a computer language, which is what L337 is.

We're not discussing computer languages. We're discussing literary languages. l337 doesn't meet the base criteria for a literary language. Its vocabulary, morphology and syntax are simply the words and structures in an existing language, with somewhat altered symbols. French and English, to use your comparison, share some words (because of a certain Norman conqueror), but there are a multitude of differences. They are not the same language, and are not recognized as such by any group.

If users of l337 wish to consider it a computer language, I won't be able to comment for lack of knowledge. But I've studied linguistics a bit; I've dabbled in the occult black arts of syntax, phonology, semantics and morpology. I bear the mark of one who has communed with the demons of sociolinguistics. I make no claim to being an powerful necromancer of such dark and dire regions, but I'm a bit more than an apprentice.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:46 pm

Originally posted by fable

Absolutely. Each distinct language is a code which, at its simplest, includes a solid group of long-established rules that define what each word and phrase means, how words can be combined to make new words, how words can through syntax acquire a hierarchy of meanings, etc. French is distantly related to English, which accounts for the similarities; but the two languages are philologically distinctive. Note, too, that for a language to be considered itself, it must have evolved its own words, and maintained itself for a given period of time, usually a hundred years; some would say, more.

So, becuase L337 is a relativly new language, it's not considered one? So, when English first came around, it wasn't a language? Same with French, or German? L337 has it's own way pronoucning the words, as well as spelling them. The distinct aspect of L337, though, it's spelling and useage. It is used enough, online, to be recognized by any online gamer, as a language. Just because a major country or ethnic group doesn't speak it as it's native language, makes it no less of one.

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:50 pm

Well, if we're around in a couple hundred or thousand years, we could wait around and see the future of the language. Within our life spans, I doubt that L337 will become a mainstream one. It's a language, but not one that is recognized. That's my opinion.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 9:08 pm

Originally posted by The Z
Well, if we're around in a couple hundred or thousand years, we could wait around and see the future of the language. Within our life spans, I doubt that L337 will become a mainstream one. It's a language, but not one that is recognized. That's my opinion.

I don't mind that people don't recognize it as a language, I'm just trying to get the point across that it is a language, regardless.

One last comment before I meld back into the darkness, but whats everyone's call on Klingon? It's not something that's been around for hundreds of years, yet people speak it, teach it (yes, there are university courses on how to speak Klingon), and even write in it. Does that mean it's technically not a language?

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 9:27 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
So, becuase L337 is a relativly new language, it's not considered one? So, when English first came around, it wasn't a language? Same with French, or German?

Right. English wasn't suddenly a language, overnight. (Nor were French, or German.) English was part of a proto-German language group at that point, a sort of "larger language" that would eventually spawn a range of modern languages. Slowly, over hundreds of years, it differentiated in England because of distance from other localities, proximity to other language groups and cultures, and the presence of other environmental pressures into what eventually became, by somewhere around the 9th or 10 century AC, Anglo-Saxon, or Old English. Here is an example, drawn from a writ, issued in 1020, by King Cnut of England:

"Cnut cyning grret his arcebiscopas and his leodbiscopas and $urcyl eorl and ealle his eorlas and ealne his @eodscype, twelfhynde and twyhynde, gehadode and lawede, on Englalande freondlice. And ic cy!e eow, $aet ic wylle beon hold hlaford and unswicende to godes gerihtum and to rihtre woroldlage...Nu ne wandode ic na minum sceattum, $a hwile @be eow unfrio& on handa stod: nu ic mid godes fultume @baet totwaemde mid minum scattum..."

Languages aren't suddenly created. They evolve from previous languages over time, bit by bit, as cultures change. This Old English offers different characters, strange spelling, obsolete words, and major grammatical differences from modern English. Yet certain words carry across, even today, usually with changes that reflect totally different pronunciations: "Cyning," in the first line, is our modern "king." "Hlaford" is "lord." "Freondlice" is distantly related to "freundlich," German for "friendly." Again, the key to language is evolution. Languages evolve out of one another. A language doesn't suddenly appear, with one exception: the manmade Esperanto.

English, then, when it first appeared, drew away from an already extant language by virtue of distinctions of syntax, pronunciation, morphology, and semantics. Over time, the distinctions became greater and greater. If Old English strongly resembles (but differs from) Proto-German, the English of, say, three hundred years later is absolutely unique. It can in no way be likened to any of its Germanic cousins. Here's a bit of a proclamation that Henry V issued around the time of his invasion of France, in 1415:

"Be ther proclamacioun made, that alle manere of men, marchauntz, artificers, or other, of what estat, degre, or condicioun, that euere they be, that willen toward oure liege lorde the kyng, beyng atte harflewe in the costes of Normandye, that god him spede, with corne, brede, mele, or flour, wyne, ale, or biere, fyssh, flessh or any other viteille, clothe, lynnen, wollen or eny merchaundise, shertys, breches, doublettys, hosen, shone, or eny other manere ware of armure, artilrye, or of othere stuffe, lette him apparaille and make redy betwen this and to-day seuenyght their bodyes, goodes, merchaundyses, ware, stoffure, viteille, what that eure it be..."

Well! Big difference, here! Within three hundred years, the English language has evolved into a recognizable semblance of its modern self. The main differences which sound quite exotic are the complex syntax (that one sentence is typical of literature at the time) and the still-prevalent proto-German plural ending of "en, and n," which we still find in German today, whereas English has moved to "es and s." But my point, here, is that English evolved. It didn't just "happen" overnight. Every language is the same: it evolves, gradually, organically, out of other languages that precede it, so that Modern English evolved out of Anglo-Saxon, which evolved out of Proto-German, which in turn evolved out of a root language for a much larger area, which in turn evolved...and so on.

A written or spoken language also comprises, as English shows, a distinct vocabulary, sentence and phrase structure, and word interrelationships. Simply changing the symbols used for the words does not create a new written language. That's the way language works: 1) It evolves over a relatively (relative to human life) time. 2) It has its own vocabulary, etc. l337 has none of these.

L337 has it's own way pronoucning the words, as well as spelling them. The distinct aspect of L337, though, it's spelling and useage. It is used enough, online, to be recognized by any online gamer, as a language. Just because a major country or ethnic group doesn't speak it as it's native language, makes it no less of one.

There is a very precise, accepted meaning for what constitutes a natural language, just as there is for what constitutes oxygen, or quartz. You're free to believe otherwise and redefine "language" to mean what you wish, but then the science of linguistics itself has to be completely disregarded, and discussion becomes impossible. I'm not writing this in anger or to put you down.

It's just that linguistics is an accepted science, and like other sciences, it uses "hard definitions" as tools. If we abrogate the tools, we have nothing to work with.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:14 pm

Originally posted by fable
Right. English wasn't suddenly a language, overnight. (Nor were French, or German.) English was part of a proto-German language group at that point, a sort of "larger language" that would eventually spawn a range of modern languages.

I believe I understand. In the beginning English would had been call "slang" of Proto-German. As you said time, distance and other cultures would have influnced it till at a certain point it would be completely different from the orignal.

This would lead me to believe with the world coming closer together..(Internet, trade) that in the long run all languages will be combined into one.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:34 pm

Originally posted by Weasel

I believe I understand. In the beginning English would had been call "slang" of Proto-German.

Possibly so; and the process of development took hundreds of years before a natural language like Old English was fully evolved.

This would lead me to believe with the world coming closer together..(Internet, trade) that in the long run all languages will be combined into one.

Far too many differences among 'em--at least, as long as there are separate cultures. Now, if all the world's cultures, everywhere, are assimilated into a single one, where everybody lives in the same basic environment, watches the same entertainment, has the same government and the same thoughts, then a single language could evolve. Or it could be artificially forced on cultures, although the language would simply go underground, as Gaelic and others did for centuries before springing up, again.

Vinin · Post by **Vinin** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:09 pm

Oh my, everyoen watching the same entertainment? Wow wed be watching the Mets beat the Yankees a lot more every year.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:37 am

What is L337?

If it is a computer language, then someone is very confused about what a computer language is...
@Aegis, computer languages are not actually literary languages, if only because it's impossible to communicate ideas to other people with them...

I remember Waverly having a go at Kornflakes when he got here for having something to do with L337, and he told me something about some hackers...I've also heard something about Linux being connected to L337, but it's all rather confusing to tell the truth...

anyone care to expand?

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:45 am

I asked someone the same question once, it may of been to Xandax.

Anyways the response was that L337 derives from a form of communication used by people who play multiplayer games like Quake etc. IIRC L337 would be elite or leet. Its used mainly by veteran gamers who don't want to communicate with newbies or to make them feel important. It originally was designed as a way of chatting quicker, but now its so detailed with its own grammer rules or so to speak, that I don't know why its still around.

I reckon its all rubbish, and would seriously flame someone if they tried that on me in a multiplayer setting.

EDIT- I guess I should explain that last statement, IMO it creates social barriers in games.

Vinin · Post by **Vinin** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:43 am

heh. Well actually many words came around becuase some people can not type. I mean the word pwn came around because someone missed the "o" in "own" and got pwn. To own means to kill over adn over without the other having any revenge back. Othertimes like has been said was to shorten language. Other times it is just code between higher level players. However most of the time, it is just used for fun and usually indicates that the user is just joking, ex: "I r0x3rs j00r b0x3rs." Well in any case, most people still talk in plain english/french/spanish whenever they game online so.