Roleplaying Arrogance

ILL WILL · Post by **ILL WILL** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:24 pm

I hope this is the appropriate forum underwhich to post this thread.

I have noticed that people who play roleplaying games tend to be rather arrogant or condescending folks, and I'd like to see how many of you agree or disagree. I mean this only as a generalization, and of course there are almost as many exceptions to a general rule as there are not. However, by and large, I noticed that as a class, people who play roleplaying games tend to be, in their interactions with others, somewhat rude and haughty.

I'll give only one example. As I've perused these boards I've noticed many people ask farily simple questions. As often as they receive helpful responses, they seem to get chided. It almost seems that as a populace, other people on the boards cannot believe one could be so dim-witted as to not know the answer to the question he/she asked. (No I do not speak from personal experience).

Anyway, I'd like your observations on (1) whether this is true, and (2) if it is, why so. One would think that, because roleplaying games carry with them a stigma that often dubs roleplayers as misfits, roleplayers would be somewhat more amicable than they are. Perhaps this social outcasting is the reason for such haughtiness (as a defense mechanism). As everyone who reads these boards is likely a roleplayer, I expect many will draw offense from it. I assure you no offense is intended, only curiosity.

Respectfully,
Illest Childe

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:51 pm

Actually this belongs more in the SYM forum.

But have not expericend what you mention, I've found most people to be helpful and if there are some tossers out there I really doubt it is due to the RP-background (there are some everywhere).

I could mentioned mention 2 types of genres where I've found them to be more (much more) hostile and condesending than thoese that hang around here and other RP-boards I*m a member of. (but wont mention the genres cause I really hate generalisations

)

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:58 pm

I agree with Xandax, many other genres cause much more haughtiness and arrogance, but the nature of those games makes things like those inevitable. Among RPG'ers however, I've yet to meet anyone that is condescending and arrogant towards other people. Most have seemed pretty helpful. I haven't seen anyone chided on these boards yet for asking simple questions. That's just my opinion, but I think I'm not as knowledgable on this topic as others since I don't frequent forums as often as others (who would give a more educated answer).

PS: I think a moderator should move this to Speak Your Mind, and add "No Spam" to the title. That way more people will respond

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:06 pm

I have been around GameBanshee for a while and I believe your observations to be fair, with a few caveats. While some of the folks around here can be a little snippy at times, these forums are among the most civil on the internet.

What those of us who have been around for a while forget is that not everyone has the history and knowledge of threads from six months ago. On other forums, the usual reply goes something like this: "Use the Search button, stupid." I have seen that a few times, but I believe that most of the people at GameBanshee are helpful and will either post the answer that they know or will look up the old thread and post a link to that thread.

Let me ask you a question, ILL WILL: How long have you been lurking around here? I think if you look at the people who are posting the questions and the ones posting the answers, you might see behaviour that appears to be nasty or unnecessarily harsh. However, many of us have been around for a while and that isn't someone riding a new member extra hard, it's just how old friends interact.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:17 pm

Originally posted by The Z
<snip>

PS: I think a moderator should move this to Speak Your Mind, and add "No Spam" to the title. That way more people will respond

Buck is the only one with moderator rights in this part of the board.

ILL WILL · Post by **ILL WILL** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:21 pm

Ah. Speak Your Mind forum would have been better, I did not know it existed. No protests from me if it's moved there.

To clarify, the behavior I described above does not pertain to this forum or this sight to any degree greater than any other (and is perhaps less prevelant here). Further, there can be little doubt that when questions are posted, helpful information follows soon thereafter.

I should really focus this better. I think I am referring to the (for lack of a better term) "culture" of roleplaying. That should help a little. Do you notice that haughtiness and the like are attributes of the roleplaying culture to a greater degree than other cultures?

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:31 pm

Originally posted by ILL WILL
<snip>
I should really focus this better. I think I am referring to the (for lack of a better term) "culture" of roleplaying. That should help a little. Do you notice that haughtiness and the like are attributes of the roleplaying culture to a greater degree than other cultures?

Naaa - I've not experience any towards me - and I'm actually a generally newbee at this RP-thingy stuff. (never played any PnP only CPRGs)
And although now I've only tried some IRC PnP and some forum RP I've yet to get any to put me down.

So I still think it is some people and not the culture.

I would imagine that (sorry for generalising

) there are more of that culture you descripe in the Diablo-line of games and in the MMORPGs. (been told UO, Everquest and DAoC (wich I play))
These don't really fall directly into the culture of RP - but maybe more of a sub-culture.
Diablo and similar is (imo) also (if not more) a sub-culture of action-genre.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:47 pm

Originally posted by ILL WILL
Do you notice that haughtiness and the like are attributes of the roleplaying culture to a greater degree than other cultures?

Yes . . . and no. I think that many traditional RPGers are smarter than their peers, and they often know it. I do not, however, believe that arrogance and haughtiness are intentional characteristics or the result of feelings of superiority.

I believe that many people who play RPGs do so as a creative outlet; they also tend to be very good at anything else they do and are often drawn to computers and other activities that involve a high level of intelligence. In my experience, many so-called RPG-geeks are socially maladjusted because they see little point to friendly banter and all of the BS and social niceities that other people put up with.

One of my roommates in college was one such person, and he was on the extreme ends of the intelligence scale. Many of the folks that lived in our dorm thought he was a dork and socially inept because he almost never spoke to anyone unless they needed him for something. The fact of the matter was that he was smarter than everyone else, and rather than bring his conversation down to the level of our dormmates, he'd rather say nothing at all. However, if you could engage him at his level; that is, you could talk to him about things that he was interested in: history, computers, Legos, etc., and not just the usual talk about cars and sports, he was a very engaging guy and a very good friend.

I think another reason why RPGers are seen as social misfits is because they generally have a different set of priorities than most people. This disdain for traditional status symbols (the right car, the right clothes, etc.) sets them (us) apart from mainstream kids. However, we are just as vain as other people, just about different things (watch a group of computer geeks get together and brag about their new machine that they've overclocked so much it needs a water-cooling system), but this perceived lack of concern for traditional socialisation often leads to a perception of arrogance.

Magus · Post by **Magus** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 3:45 pm

Well said. I think I agree. Especially the socially maladjusted part.

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 3:54 pm

Originally posted by ILL WILL
I have noticed that people who play roleplaying games tend to be rather arrogant or condescending folks, and I'd like to see how many of you agree or disagree.

I agree as far as PnP players are concerned. In PnP games, which are mainly based on on three things - direct communication, talent as an actor and knowledge of the rules - people tend to let other people down sometimes. I remember some very tough discussions in PnP sessions when experienced or charismatic players displayed exactly those two things - arrogance and condescending. On the other hand, I've often seen that behaviour if people who are very good at doing something meet other people who are not so good at it. I generally dislike such behaviour ... but it normally happens if people want to impress strangers ... and in PnP RPGS it often happens between best friends.

Originally posted by ILL WILL
As I've perused these boards I've noticed many people ask farily simple questions. As often as they receive helpful responses, they seem to get chided. It almost seems that as a populace, other people on the boards cannot believe one could be so dim-witted as to not know the answer to the question he/she asked.

I think that the Game Banshee forums are extremely civilized well moderated compared to others I know. I've never have seen terms like "stupid newbie" or the like in the game specific boards and there are some very nice and helpful folks out there. Congrats to Buck for creating that atmosphere and Thanks to those who do their part in keeping it that way.

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:02 pm

haha, I like not fitting genres. Unlike most RP's you discuss, I'm pretty social, like sports and cars, am by no means off the intelligence scale. I dabble in acting, but I'm not very good. As to how I dress, meh, I wear what I like making me look either punk or prep, depending on my mood. However, i still like roleplaying, so I really don't think that the Roleplaying culture is a fair bet. It is extremely diverse, just like any other. Some are very kind and open, some are cynical and condescending. Take your pick.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:55 pm

Originally posted by ILL WILL
I have noticed that people who play roleplaying games tend to be rather arrogant or condescending folks, and I'd like to see how many of you agree or disagree. I mean this only as a generalization, and of course there are almost as many exceptions to a general rule as there are not. However, by and large, I noticed that as a class, people who play roleplaying games tend to be, in their interactions with others, somewhat rude and haughty.

I believe my arrogance is not from playing roleplaying games. I believe it comes from my highschool years.

(This from someone voted most helpful to newbies)

But in the end, I grew tired of answering the same questions again and again....finally I decided not to visit the BG2 forum again. Boredom...maybe..

"Please look under the topic 'How to get X'
to the topic
'Where is X'
to get your answer"

made me feel like I was just wasting my time helping people.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:59 pm

I think a place like GB is a perfect cure for arrogance. Hell, all I need to do is read some of the posts up here in SYM, and I find out how very little I know compare to some of the experts in so many fields.

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:56 pm

HAHAHAHAH

Oh fable, false modesty does not suite you!

fable best, wisest and coolest mod. Knows all about all. Its really kinda creepy!

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:14 pm

@Obsidian, I'm not being falsely modest. I admire people like CE, Voodoo Dali and HLD, with so many facts in fields I've never studied, who can express a breadth of material in an engaging, intelligent matter. Others, like Maharlika and CM, bring unique perspectives drawn from interesting cultures. I don't always see eye to eye with Weasel, Waverly, Grunt or Kayless, but I have enormous respect for the consideration they've given various issues, and the respect they show others. These are just a few of the people whom I've learned a bit from. There are plenty more.

I wouldn't be wise if I looked at the contents of SYM and thought I knew a lot more than others. I'd be an idiot.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:54 pm

I can remember a time when a certain person joined the board...

It was a ? (words escape me) " a new beginning"

During this time I told my good friend Waverly (Surprise, bet most of you didn't know this) that I was glad someone joined this board. An "informed" poster IMHO. No name needed.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Jun 21, 2002 11:51 pm

Originally posted by fable
@Obsidian, I'm not being falsely modest. I admire people like CE, Voodoo Dali and HLD, with so many facts in fields I've never studied, who can express a breadth of material in an engaging, intelligent matter. Others, like Maharlika and CM, bring unique perspectives drawn from interesting cultures. I don't always see eye to eye with Weasel, Waverly, Grunt or Kayless, but I have enormous respect for the consideration they've given various issues, and the respect they show others. These are just a few of the people whom I've learned a bit from. There are plenty more.

I wouldn't be wise if I looked at the contents of SYM and thought I knew a lot more than others. I'd be an idiot.

I forget who said this and the exact wording, but I believe the expression "The more we learn the more we realize how little we know" is particularly apt in this case.

@Fable-You do seem to come across as being one of the most knowledgable people on the board. I can but hope that I myself will have such a vast base of knowedge to draw upon when I'm 50-odd.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:39 am

First, welcome here Ill Will, I hope you will enjoy SYM

posted by ILL WILL
Anyway, I'd like your observations on (1) whether this is true, and (2) if it is, why so. One would think that, because roleplaying games carry with them a stigma that often dubs roleplayers as misfits, roleplayers would be somewhat more amicable than they are. Perhaps this social outcasting is the reason for such haughtiness (as a defense mechanism). As everyone who reads these boards is likely a roleplayer, I expect many will draw offense from it. I assure you no offense is intended, only curiosity.

I'd like to split up my reply in two parts: Gamebanshee and other fora, and IRL contacts I've have with the RPG-culture.

I have very little experience of internet message boards, but from what I've seen, Gamebanshee is by far the least arrogant board I've seen. I must however add that at the few gaming boards I've visisted have all been helpful.

Subcultures based on games, such as Diablo II battlenet or the BG-series, exhibits the same characteristics as all groups, ie strong personal identification with this game in favour of other types of games, hostilie attitudes to towards people who prefer other games, etc. This has nothing to do with games, it is general and fundamental human group-psychology. All groups have their norms, and the in-group members of course wants to view their own groups norms as "better" or "more worth" than other groups norms. My limited experience is that (a broad generalisation) action game group norms are more about being "cool" and whereas RPG-group norms are more about being "intelligent". This might explain why RPG-ers as a group may seems more arrogant that action gamers. Kids running around thinking they are sooo cool, is just amusing and sometimes ridiculous, whereas people who focus on how much more intelligent and gifted they are compared to others, is IMO more provocative.

Personally, I have a fairly bad experiece of RL RPG:ers as a group and as a culture. Looking at the culture, it reminds me of extreme computer geek culture. Intelligence and intellectual skills of a specific type are overvalued and looked upon as "the only type of intelligence that counts". I have sadly found that many people who play RPG/CRPG:s view themselves as superior to other gamers, because "RPG:s demand much more". I've often heard expressions such as "this is this other game is for 5-years old", whereas this RPG (BG for instance) is sooo much more complex and demands "real skill". This is IMO untrue, since different games require different skills. The problem here is that "real skill" for the RPG:er is RPG-related skills, whereas for instance visumotoric skills or skills to aren't counted as a skill.

Now, to my RL experiences. Unfortunately I have had fairly negative experiences of the RPG-culture. Let me also add that I am not an RPG player myself, so I have never been inside the culture, only observed it. Many of the devoted RPG:ers I have met, have actually been disturbed people. Yes, this is a horrible thing to say, but as HLD describes, RPG:s have long been a subculture with a special selection. In Sweden where I live, it has long been a connection and overlap between RPG-"geeks" and computer-"geeks", they are often people with decreased social skills and sometimes also with decreased social needs. They find more stimulation and gratification in their fanatsy worlds and fantasy identities, than in the "ordinary" world. They may be extremely talanted within their specific field (programming, networking, whatever) and they are not very interested in the larger picture.
This type of personality is deviating from the standard norm, and as such, many such people have gone through a lot of bad experiences from being deviate. Many groups who have been badly treatend and looked down on, develop the compensatory "defence mechanism" of viewing themselves as superior instead. However, as role playing has become more and more accepted in Swedish soceity, it has also spread to a broader audience, thus attracting many different types of people. The stigma connected to RPG:s are vanishing, and I think the haughtiness from RPG:s will vanish simultanously.

Again, I'd like to point out that this is only my personal experience and that the features I describe are general group features applicable to most groups.

@Obsidian: I certainly don't think Fable is being falsely modest, it is like Ode's quote: The more you know, the more you realize how little we all know. True knowledge includes awareness of how limited man's knowledge is also about very basic things, and understanding the nature and consequences of those limits.

Originally posted by fable
@Obsidian, I'm not being falsely modest. I admire people like CE, Voodoo Dali and HLD, with so many facts in fields I've never studied

Thanks Fable

I have to add though that knowledge you pick up because you are studying or working in a specific field, is the kind of knowledge anyone could pick up if they were equally interested in that particular field. Personally, I admire people who pick up knowledge regardless of their field of work, much more since that demands more from the person

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:15 am

Honestly, I think arrogance in a person is perceived and in some cases, a human characteristic. One could be arrogant without realizing it. Or someone could think another is arrogant when he/she is really not. As a human being though, competition and condescending can come very naturally. Being an ameauteur athlete, I try not to be arrogant and condescending to my lesser competition, but just by saying that, I've proved that in some ways I am arrogant. It comes naturally sometimes. It's a human trait that you can't escape. Even if you are humble, there are times when you will condescend others, simply because it's a human characteristic. As CE said, RPG's are much more complex in some ways than say, Unreal. But Unreal demands hand-eye coordination, quick thinking and cunning. RPG's demand planning, and a different type of intellect than FPS's. Once again as CE said, that's why some RPG'ers think that they use much more of their brain than others. At the same time, I know people who play FPS's that think RPG's are lame, simply because nothing on the spot happens, that uses your eyes and mind at the same time. There's no real answer to this question that your asking. There's no real secret. Humans have a part of them that will always be arrogant, and there's no real group of people that are more arrogant than the rest.