Human monsters

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:00 pm

Originally posted by dragon wench

...it is this I find most galling.....most chilling....about those that support capital punishment......
Nothing can ever give that life back....it is an irrevocable step....

So, you feel it is right for one person who has commited murder to live out his life, albeit in a prison?

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:07 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
Now, if that person were to be lashed, say three times, and then serve some time, do you think he would be willing to commit the same crime?

Petty crime most of the time leads to more serious crimes. Use enough punishment to deter the small crimes and you will cut back on the cases of serious crime.

No person is born evil/bad/good. He or she learns these traits from someone or society.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:08 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
So, you feel it is right for one person who has commited murder to live out his life, albeit in a prison?

Yes, as everything in this thread I've posted states, I do.

I would prefer that something else could be done to properly rehabiliate them into society...but that is often not possible.......
because there is always the danger that it will happen again.

And As I keep stating, as others continue to reiterate, what if they convict the wrong person? Moreover, punishment does not act as a deterrent.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:09 pm

Originally posted by Weasel

Petty crime most of the time leads to more serious crimes. Use enough punishment to deter the small crimes and you will cut back on the cases of serious crime.

No person is born evil/bad/good. He or she learns these traits from someone or society.

That is exactly one of the points I'm trying to make. By molding the punishment of crimes, making them harsher and a little bit more permanent, you are detering people to do them. As Weasel said, you give harsh punishment for a small crime, they're less likely to commit a major one.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:10 pm

Originally posted by dragon wench

Yes, as everything in this thread I've posted states, I do.

But why is that fair?

Why did little Suzie have to die, and Billy Bob only has to spend half his life in jail? He still gets to live, only with less privileges, while Little Suzie is buried six feet under. How is that justice?

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:12 pm

Originally posted by mental_nomad

Then you won't sqawk when it is your daughter unjustly accused for murder and killed.

Not one bit. I have took the time to raise my daughter and teach her right and wrong. If she grows up and gets in a situation where she is accused of murder...I will hire a lawyer and hope if she is innocent she will be found innocent.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:16 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
But why is that fair?

Why did little Suzie have to die, and Billy Bob only has to spend half his life in jail? He still gets to live, only with less privileges, while Little Suzie is buried six feet under. How is that justice?

It's not justice. It's telling Billybob and his cronies to not worry about the crime they commited. We have a nice cell for you. 15 years and you can go free to kill again.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:20 pm

Originally posted by mental_nomad

Good point...since not a single rich person who could hire a lawyer is on death row. nor ever has been.
only minorities and poor. hence they are convicted often with rubber stamp.

Thats just another issue with our current legal system. The rich seem impervious to it.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:26 pm

Originally posted by mental_nomad

Good point...since not a single rich person who could hire a lawyer is on death row. nor ever has been.
only minorities and poor. hence they are convicted often with rubber stamp.

There are court appointed lawyers...which do defend the minorities and the poor. I'm no rich man, I have had a court appointed lawyer defend me before, (And he did defend me) and I was found innocent. There was no rubber stamp in my case. Is there cases where the"rubber stamp" is used, most likely. That is why the US has appeals. It takes what?? three appeals before someone on deathrow is put to death? 10 years three appeals. The US isn't China where you are found guilty, taken outside shoot and your family gets the bill for the bullet all in one day.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:31 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
Thats just another issue with our current legal system. The rich seem impervious to it.

Some are, some are not. There is a special on the History Channel (I believe) this week showing the rich who did not get away with it.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:42 pm

Originally posted by mental_nomad
I know ya'll have no clue who i am....and I freely admit that in an intellectual psuedo reality i cannot pretend to argue or debate with ya'll.
But in real life...anyone remember it? I will state I doubt one of you can speak from experience in any of this. I can.

I have experienced this public desire to "be tough on crime"..the blaise attitude of "oh well...a few innocents get caught up in machine, it price we pay" but the WE isn't one paying the price.....
i know what it is like to be beaten, made to stay awake for 16 hours under interogation. ....only blind luck saved me.
i will say there was a part of me...reading the posts...wishing each one of you could experience it. not theory.
But actually being poor...innocent and accused. you are dog**** to the system.
And it is not a deterant. In fact, such a climate breeds just the opposite. Even more hostility, resentment and hatred.

I can respect your opinion. I believe your opinion needs to be stated. Without people like you the system would overwhelm us all. I will not even think of asking you , or anyone else to change your opinion. We all come from different backgrounds and should have a right to stat our opinions.

Yes I might sound coldblooded, but my beliefs are based on my family. Their protection comes before anything else.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:33 pm

Originally posted by mental_nomad

But you are not protecting them. Only making it more likely they will be hurt by crime or the system. you keep looking at short term solutions....but all the system is doing is making MORE criminals not less...more hate for those who stand outside ignoring the suffering. Resentment.
A man in Oklahoma is serving 99 years without parole for growing marjuana...he had no criminal record. He had wife, kids, a farm....He grew pot. The same mentality that drives peoples self interest has now, a man in prison. kids raised in foster homes. The farm sold and profits divided throughout the "Drug enforcement Division" (which means they do not have to explain where or how it is spent) Have you noticed any less pot smoking? Is it a deterant?
Waco Texas.....They went in to "save" the kids from abuse....but instead burned them alive....there is a similarity to cause and effect. If you leave it to jack booted people who get off on that stuff....you just gave the real criminal carte blanc to prey on you.
You seem to want a police state.

I see we are talking about two different things. I'm talking about murder. I would never ask for a person who smokes dope to be put to death. This from the first page.

Originally posted by Weasel

Yes someone who kills by accident should be helped. But some do IMHO cross the line and forfeit any help...except the help to a chair or a needle.

This is where I stand on the issue of people who kill. Some woman in Texas (A nurse) is drunk and hits a man walking. Impales him threw the windshield, not killing him. She drives home and leaves the car (with him still impaled thru the windshield) in the shed till he bleeds to death. She has IMHO forfeited her life. But she will get her day in court nevertheless. This is the way the US works. (And I do believe the courts need a reworking)

Now if we move to a different crime, my views will change to suit that crime.

Dope, (If it can be guarrented) that a person smoking it will not cause harm to anybody else in society, I say legalize it.

Waco, (IMHO) a bunch of gun toting cowboys who should had been sent to trial. If convicted of murder, given the same treatment as any other murderer.

Accidental...help

Premeditaded (sp?) ... death sentence.

Three strikes and your out, (IMHO) depends on the crime. Shoplifters..no, Rapist...yes.

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:09 pm

@mental_nomad
I don't have nearly as much experience as you in this matter (next to none in fact, sorry if I'm rather uneducated in this topic and I sound like a child), so I may have misinterpreted what you are attempting to state. What I believe you're trying to say is that "where does justice factor in when you kill a man for killing another even if the suspect is innocent". I may be just repeating myself, but unfortunately it's human flaws that allow mistakes in the legal system to happen. We as a race are always at war with eachother, and even ourselves, but yet, this will never change because when we disagree, things can descend into blood. I think the sad truth is, that real, pure justice can never come to us, because no matter what, there are always biases.

A sad but true fact of society is that justice is in the eyes of the beholder, and generally the beholder has a different idea than the rest of the community. And yes, the AD&D justice is much more flawed then ours.

@the rest
I think in order to have a better (but not perfect) system, we have to find a balance between imprisonment, and death, because obviously both don't necessarily help anything. Imprison someone and they'll be back later. Kill them and well.....you kill them, and you aren't exactly any better than him. I mean, you just commited the same crime, the only difference is that you did it *legally*. The only question is, what's worse than imprisonment and death combined? Obviously we don't want that much bloodshed, but we can't exactly give them a free pass to kill. You'll need something that kills that burning aggression, and I don't know anything that can quench that fire....

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:15 pm

@mental nomad:

Great post. I really like it, and the points you bring up are completely valid and true.

@dragon wench:

I would prefer that something else could be done to properly rehabiliate them into society...but that is often not possible.......

I think it's been proven that the threat of violence does not deter violence. I believe that the ongoing example of the U.S. judicial system's usage of the death penalty proves this beyond any reasonable doubt. There are a large number of factors which contribute to violent crime here in the US, and traditionally the focus of lawmakers has been on the punishment of crime as a deterrent to stop other possible offenders. This has been the "rehabilatation" of the past 100 years or so. Needless to say, this hasn't worked, and the statistics illustrate that.

I feel that effective rehabilitation is the only answer to crime. Simple incarceration - and even the usage of forced inmate labor - has also not been an effective deterrent. Witness the burgeoning prison population here in the US to gauge how well it's been working. Add to this the fact that many inmates are repeat offenders, and it all adds up. Nothing's working.

The current rehabilatation of the prison systems may focus too strongly on external factors. External factors always have an impact on us, but little can be done to change them, normally. What needs to happen, I believe, is an internal change within the inmate. Since none of the above methods have been effective in achieving this, something else needs to be implemented. I believe punishment may be a tool, but it is not the answer. Obviously, psychological methods would need to be developed that would prove effective at bringing about the internal change. They would have to be pretty intense, but I think it might work.

Would the death penalty ever be used? I don't know. I don't like it myself, not one bit. I just can't see how two wrongs make a right.