Human monsters

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:25 am

We was shocked when this happened:
a small group of... don't know how to call them...
tried to make violence upon a child.
Somehow, they failed, it seems.
Not knowing what to do, they BURNED HER ALIVE!!!!
Poor little child!
She was 8!
They found her body burned for a half...
Now, justice here has been TOO forgiving for a while.
This time, to avoid an insurrection, they gave 'em
the maximum: prison 'till life lasts.
I've always been against death penalty, but damn,
I don't feel they're being punished enough!

How can their advocates keep trying to reduce what they
got??!? Aren't they humans either???
I hate laws

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:31 am

Could someone find a link to the story behind this please?

/-\lastor · Post by **/-\lastor** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:32 am

Me too. Here in the Netherlands we're lucky if a murderer gets a mild warning

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:38 am

Originally posted by /-\lastor
Me too. Here in the Netherlands we're lucky if a murderer gets a mild warning

Also in Denmark it seems - although politicians keep saying penalties should go up, especially for violence and repeting crimes but the courts keep giving out low (imo) punishment.

I don't think such people as mentioned in first post should be alowed to live - I'd happily pull the trigger and pay for the bullets also.

People surprise me still...........

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:40 am

Originally posted by Littiz
I've always been against death penalty, but damn,
I don't feel they're being punished enough!

We all live a cruel world sometimes.

I'm glad there are people who think enough of humans to be against the death penalty...but I believe some people cannot be helped/saved. Prison is IMHO not good enough for people who decide to kill, especially in the case you just posted.

Yes someone who kills by accident should be helped. But some do IMHO cross the line and forfeit any help...except the help to a chair or a needle.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:09 am

Originally posted by Littiz
We was shocked when this happened:
a small group of... don't know how to call them...
tried to make violence upon a child.
Somehow, they failed, it seems.
Not knowing what to do, they BURNED HER ALIVE!!!!
Poor little child!
She was 8!
They found her body burned for a half...
Now, justice here has been TOO forgiving for a while.
This time, to avoid an insurrection, they gave 'em
the maximum: prison 'till life lasts.
I've always been against death penalty, but damn,
I don't feel they're being punished enough!

How can their advocates keep trying to reduce what they
got??!? Aren't they humans either???
I hate laws

I really don't think death pentalty is worse than till-life-lasts prison. And anyway, I don't think they will survive long in a prison where the LOWEST thing you could have done is murdering a child.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:01 am

Re: Re: Human monsters

Originally posted by Vicsun

I really don't think death pentalty is worse than till-life-lasts prison. And anyway, I don't think they will survive long in a prison where the LOWEST thing you could have done is murdering a child.

Well I've always like to be cynical so:
Might be a less terrible fate, but it is by far cheaper for society.

I hate to see my tax-money going to support such criminals.

(and yes - I know this is a very cynical statement)

And I also think (have no way of knowing) it is better for the family of the victim to be certain that these people got what they deserved and have no way of doing something like that again.
One can call it revenge if they wish, but I know how I would feel.

KidD01 · Post by **KidD01** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:09 am

If you think that's unfair, you better check this out. A friend just emailed me news about former 2nd Indonesian president who got pardoned by government. you know what that fella sins ? Corruption of many government assests, and lots of despicable things which is efforts to keep his family fat pockets full

Talk about justice eh ?

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 11:37 am

Kid, how can you compare thefts with the murdering, so violent, of a
child? I can't imagine her last moments!
I don't know, I don't like death penalty for many reasons,
the first of them is that surely sometimes innocents have been
executed...
But for this particular crime, I think I'd want it, here
people don't really remain in prison that long...
There's always some legal escape for them!
Really I hope that the other prisoners could do something
(not know what...) to them!!

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:01 pm

I understand the sentiments being expressed here....

I have a son who is seven years old.....and trust me....if anybody ever did anything to hurt him....... they had better hope that the police found them before I did....because I would, quite literally, kill them.

That being said, I want to point out here that the US, despite many states having capital punishment, has one of the highest violent crime rates in the world......

IMO the threat of severe punishment does not in any way minimize the occurance of violent crime.

Littiz, I do hear what you are saying..... The problem is though that you can't just arbitrarily institute the death penelty.....

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:05 pm

I received an e-mail about somthing similar to this. It was actually a petition... I'll try and dig it up, to post here.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:10 pm

Here's what the email said. If your interested in signing the petition, I'll send it. I feel this ties in to the original topic...

[q]Dear All,
Please look at this horrific situation and make your own mind up. Do you remember this incident? On February 12, 1993, a small boy who was to turn three in March was taken from a shopping mall in
Liverpool by two 10-year-old boys. Jamie Bulger walked away from his mother for only a second and Jon Venables took his hand and led him out of the mall with his friend Robert Thompson. They took Jamie on a walk for over 2 and a half miles, along the way stopping every now and again to torture the poor little boy who was crying constantly for his mummy. Finally they stopped at a railway track where they
brutally kicked him, threw stones at him, rubbed paint in his eyes and pushed batteries up his anus. It was actually worse than this. What these two boys did was so horrendous that Jamie's mother was forbidden to identify his body. They then left his beaten small body on the tracks so a train could run him over to hide the mess they had created. These two boys, even being boys, understood what they did was wrong, hence trying to make it look like an accident. This week Lady Justice Butler-Sloss has awarded the two boys anonymity for the rest of their lives when they leave custody with new identities. We cannot let this happen. They will also leave early this year only serving just over half of their sentence. One paper even
stated that Robert may go on to University. They are getting away with their crime. They need to pay,
and we have to do something to make them pay for their horrific crime. They violently took Jamie's life away, and in return they get a new life. Please send this to everyone you know. Read it all the way through before you add your name at the end. Please add your name and location to the list and forward it to friends and family. Please copy and paste this e-mail to a newly composed e-mail instead of forwarding so we do not get arrows at the beginning of the sentences. If you are the 220th person to
sign, please forward this e-mail to cust.ser.cs@gtnet.gov.uk and address it to Lady Justice Butler-Sloss. Then start the list over again and send to your friends and family. The Love-Bug virus took less that 72 hours to reach the world. I hope this one does as well. We need to protect our family and friends from creatures like Robert and Jon. One day they may be living next to you and your small children, without
your knowledge. If Robert and Jon could be so evil at 10 years old, imagine what they could do as adults. [/q]

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:28 pm

Originally posted by dragon wench
<snip>
That being said, I want to point out here that the US, despite many states having capital punishment, has one of the highest violent crime rates in the world......

IMO the threat of severe punishment does not in any way minimize the occurance of violent crime.
<snip>

But they wont do it again if they have been executed.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:31 pm

@Aegis, the security video that showed baby Jamie being lead away by Jon Venables and Robert Thompson is as clear in my mind as the day I first saw it.

What we need to point out here is that children of ten (at least in the UK) are not considered, in the eyes of the law, to be legally responsible. What we also have to consider is the fact that children are brutal creatures by nature. In no way am I defending the two boys who committed this crime, I am just wary of concluding that a monster child will become a monster adult. As far as I am aware, Jon Venables and Robert Thompson had been considered 'normal' children, who had not been in previous trouble.

The parents of Jamie Bulger were obviously devastated by what happened, and how sickening that it happened at the hands of another child. They are now divorced, unable to reconcile their loss. How about the parents of Venables and Thompson? How would any parent feel if their ten year old had been found guilty of such a crime? I for one would feel I had failed my child in some way, and I would also feel a loss. I would be devastated.

If ever either of those two boys are identified on the street they will be lynched. If we had capital punishment here in the UK, they would not have been executed due to their age and the fact they are not considered legally responsible for their actions. This is a very unusual and very disturbing case, but does no-one believe that certain criminals can be rehabilitated despite the severity of their crime?

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:34 pm

So what is the solution?
Obviously the perpetrators of such crimes need to pay somehow for their horrific actions, but how?

Many aboriginal cultures employ shaming and restitution...perhaps some answers can be found here, I don't know....

And the other question is this. Is it even possible to address or treat such evil? If it is impossible, are we wasting our time trying to rehabilitate such individuals? Yet, to not do so, would leave the alternative of the death penelty....and this subject is fraught with complexities.......

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:39 pm

Originally posted by Xandax

But they wont do it again if they have been executed.

What if it the wrong person has been executed? And what a great way to prove that killing somebody is wrong....by killing...
I would hardly describe this as a way to teach respect for human life.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:53 pm

Originally posted by dragon wench

What if it the wrong person has been executed? And what a great way to prove that killing somebody is wrong....by killing...
I would hardly describe this as a way to teach respect for human life.

Not saying it is perfect - but have yet to see anything else that is

(and imho better)

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:58 pm

I am not a criminal psychologist, I don't have the answers. All I believe is that there is no cut and dried solution, that every case has to be considered on it's own merit, and not under a blanket of commonality. How many degrees of taking someone else's life do we have? First degree murder, second degree murder, manslaughter...at which point do we draw the line and say that individual is not capable of rehabilitation? Only after extensive individual psychiatric study, and reference to any previous...

If someone drinks and drives and takes a life, should they be executed? Over here the worst sentence is about 7 years, and is treated as a manslaughter case (manslaughter = no intention to kill) For me, by having a drink and getting behind the wheel, being fully aware of the dangers involved, taking that risk...it is as good as intentional. Can these people be rehabilitated?

Perpertrators should pay for their crimes, but as I said this particular one (Jamie Bulger) is a complicated and tragic case. Arguements screamed in the headlines as it was revealed these two boys (who were supposedly institutionalised) were receiving access to 'luxuries' such as tv and radios in their rooms, trips out, freedom to study. How else can we hope to rehabilitate if we do not offer individual assessment? and instead bang them up and deny any kind of knowledge of the outside world. These two were children themselves. We do not have the death penalty, and life here is 25 years (though rarely served) so they would have been out aged 35 (if they had served the maximum sentence) and have no clue about the modern world. They will have never grown up. Sad and dangerous. Should we not help these children to understand what they have done? I am not Jamie Bulger's mother, I would very probably feel different if I was in her position - but only towards these two! No compassion at all has been shown towards the families of Venables and Thompson.

Re shaming and restitution. Venables and Thompson were publically shamed. Whether they actually felt ashamed or not is another issue, they might now but they were kids then. What publically naming these kids has done is put a price on their heads.

Re death penalty, my question: How does execution teach the perpertrator a lesson?? Is he sorry? Does he suffer? Maybe, but only briefly. It might give the victim's family some kind of satisfaction, but surely this is short lived and will still not alleviate the depths of their loss.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:58 pm

Originally posted by Xandax

Not saying it is perfect - but have yet to see anything else that is (and imho better)

Consider this hypothetical situation for a moment

What if a law were brought into effect that condemned all rapists to castration? What if you were wrongly convicted of rape?

I don't intend this in way to be offensive, I'm just playing devil's advocate....

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:12 pm

Originally posted by dragon wench

Consider this hypothetical situation for a moment

What if a law were brought into effect that condemned all rapists to castration? What if you were wrongly convicted of rape?

I don't intend this in way to be offensive, I'm just playing devil's advocate....

Yeah - of course that is not a nice perspective (let me say *ouch*)

But there is always two sides to put something like this - and I'm sure I don't even has to write the other one

There will of course always be a dilemma as how to react towards certain crimes - but the crime stated in the beginning post still makes me react with the thought that they should die.

And no I'm not advocating sever punishments for all crimes - but violence and murder should imo get a sever notch up - well in Denmark anyway.
And there are cases where I would like to see a death penalty in Denmark also - we have recently had a case of a person that had been convicted before (can't remember if it was murder or just sever violence) that killed a mother and her two childen and choped them up and disposed of the remains. This guy still lives and imo should not do so.