Ban all weapons or not ? (Spam ? - I trust your common sense on this.).)

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Thu May 23, 2002 1:58 am

Hi all !

Yesterday a 10 year old girl in Austria took the gun of her father ( a officer in the military) and shot herself , presumably because her pair of mice died.

She planned her suicide carefully and even wrote a letter to her parents , telling them that she wanted the "cold and sure death".

Now the discussion has erupted (again

) if weapons should be banned for ALL people, except the police.

[rant mode on]
My s.o. and I own weapons and like to shoot (- only as a kind of
stress-release - you don't shoot well when agitated, angry or nervous. You HAVE to relax when shooting.)

We don't think that WE and all the other responsible weapons owners should be punished for some ***hole who doesn't know that his weapon(s) have to be locked away SAFELY !

I think people who own weapons and do not handle and store them safely (we do have LAWS on that for heavens sake !) should be disarmed and punsihed severely - just like drunken drivers.

But I don't believe that disarming all those people who know what to do and know how to behave would save one single life of a sucide candidate or the victims of some maniacal (sp?) killer. The only thing accomplished by banning all weapons would be an increase in illegal weapons.
There are lots of ways to kill, and as they say "Weapons don't kill,
only people do !" .
[rant mode off]

So whats your POV on weapons ? And how are the laws in your part of the world ?

No worries - as long as you keep your weaponry locked away

,

Beldin

Ode to a Grasshopper · Thu May 23, 2002 2:45 am

Great use of smileys, Beldin.

The problem lies in where to stop. A chainsaw can also be used as a deadly weapon, and (over here at least) you don't need a liscence to own one. You can kill with kitchen knives, as seen in countless teen slasher movies. Banning guns will not stop people committing suicide, it will just mean they use other means to do so. That said, you are quite right when you say people should be careful and lock any firearms they have away when they're not using them.
I think people should examine why so many people nowadays feel that suicide is the best/only way to deal with their problems, and take it from there.

I do not own a gun, and I have no plans to get one, however I do collect swords and have yet to have any problems with people being stupid with them.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Thu May 23, 2002 4:26 am

In the UK we have a no gun polocy but it is becoming more irrelevant since people are getting hold of guns illegaly, the only real way to stop gun violence is to have no guns (but that isn't going to happen

) They are thinking of arming the police in the UK, i personally think it is a road we don't want to go down.

My personal opinion on the matter is that guns for the average person are unnecessary.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Thu May 23, 2002 4:34 am

I couldn't agree more with any of you guys, but I do have a few thoughts.

Currently illegal in the UK for a civilian to own guns. Good rule, keeps people safe. However more and more common illegal guns are on the market and the police have no form of defense. They should have guns.
All those that own guns should be inspected reguarly in their homes to see the status of the weapon. They should be surprise inspections and if the weapon is held in an unsafe environment (ie open to anyone) it should be confiscated.
All those wtih a history of any form of violence should not be allowed to stock a gun. Whatsoever.

Robnark · Post by **Robnark** » Thu May 23, 2002 4:37 am

the trouble with guns is that they can deliver a quick, 'clean' death, and that may mean that the person doesn't have time to reconsider or have to actually deal with the issues of what thy're doing - it's easier to just pull a trigger than stab someone to death - but the problem with a responsible attitude to guns - locked gun cabinet etc. - is that it won't always work, and things like this will happen. the thing with gun control is striking the balance between ensuring safety and restricting ownership. gun control has some impact on criminal gun culture - the rate of gun crime in a UK city compared to a US city is very low - but not much. gun control is essentially for reducing the ability for someone - like the girl beldin mentioned - from making a snap decision to use a gun. while this does have an impact on the daily lives and hobbies of many people, it's easier than enforcing safe storage of firearms at omes across the country. it's by no means the ideal solution, but it's the means to an end, and probably the easiesdt one available

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Thu May 23, 2002 4:43 am

This is a really tough issue for me. I live in a rural environment where a lot of people like to hunt and shoot for recreation (my father is a member of the NRA). On the other hand I have friends and family who live in the lower 48’ in cities like New York. Violence on the streets is so common because one requires neither discipline nor training to pick up a gun and blow someone away. So I can understand why some people want guns banned and vice versa. Maybe if there was a law (like in Tombstone during Wyatt Earps days) whereas guns were not allowed in town. Having guns be illegal in urban environments might help put a curb on gang violence. If someone wanted to hunt or shoot for recreation they would have to go a certain distance away from the city. Now this would be hard to enforce (some really tough punishments would have to be used to break violators of this habit) but I’m just brainstorming off the top of my head and don't have any real answers. I don't think all guns should be outlawed, but at the same time I get infuriated when some punk blows away a cop or shopkeeper. *Sigh* We’re hard on politicians, but they really do have to make some tough decisions. I don't envy them.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Thu May 23, 2002 4:46 am

The problem that by banning guns we're still not addressing the underlying issue of what makes this girl want to commit suicide in the first place? Until that happens the problem will never be fixed, only lessened. And lessened, to be frank, just isn't good enough when it's children committing suicide.

@Beldin aka Linkmaster-Could you try and find some news articles on this particular example (in english if possible)?

@Kayless-I know what you mean. Australian pollies are, by and large, scum, but I wouldn't want to be one for the world (and not just because they're scum, either).

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Thu May 23, 2002 5:55 am

Originally posted by Nippy

All those that own guns should be inspected reguarly in their homes to see the status of the weapon. They should be surprise inspections and if the weapon is held in an unsafe environment (ie open to anyone) it should be confiscated.

All those wtih a history of any form of violence should not be allowed to stock a gun. Whatsoever.

That's basically the gun laws we have in Austria - but the problem in my opinion is :

(a) the police doesn't execute the law. The do RARELY do surprise inspections.....the should do so more often. Guns should be locked away from children. FACT.

(b) the fact that I own a gun and use it for sporting purposes doesn't mean I'm a homicidal maniac waiting to go on a rampage - but newspapers (and our government

) tend to throw gun owners into one pot - sporting marksmen are rated on the same level as neo-nazis stocking up weapons for the rise of their 4th Reich (or whatever it is those sickos do...) . I'm getting sick of defending myself in pub-discussions just because I own a gun.

c) banning weapons won't change the number of violent crimes - the bad guys all have illegal guns anyway. It also won't stop anyone who has decided to kill himself (or anyone else) - they would just use other means...

or even

Beldin

@Ode - I'll try to find a link in english...but since it's local news I don't know if there IS one...

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Thu May 23, 2002 6:15 am

In the United States, which has a long and glorious history of firearms use, and was in fact, founded after an armed insurrection, we revere guns just slightly less than God.

On the one side is the argument that if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. People will get guns, whether it is against the law or not. We've tried prohibition against alchohol and it failed. We're trying prohibition against drugs, and it's failing. If we try prohibition against guns, it will fail, too.

On the other side, if guns are not available, and we as a society make a commitment to eliminating firearms from our cultural consciousness, then murders will go down, people will stop accidentally shooting themselves and each other and domestic disputes that end in violence will decline.

If someone wants to commit suicide or become a criminal, they're going to do it regardless of the law. If they want to use a gun to do it, they will. If they can't get a gun, they'll find some other instrument. No law will deter a determined individual. Where gun control laws are valuable is in detering "crimes of passion" and heading off people who are in the midst of making bad decisions. For instance, I read a study several years ago which said that in cases involving domestic disputes which ended with a shooting, a high percentage of the guns had been purchased within the previous 24 hours. Will this deter someone who has their mind set on killing their spouse? Probably not. But I believe that it will stop people who are having an argument from going out, picking up a handgun and shooting their spouse while they're still angry.

I believe there are tangible benefits to gun control, but gun prohibition is unrealistic and undesirable. I believe the most overlooked words in the United States Constitution is the phrase "well-regulated" in the Second Amendment. It is not my opinion that this "right to bear arms" gives carte blanche for people to own any kind of weapon or firearm, nor that it exempts them from having to register themselves or their guns with a bureau similar to the DMV (for heaven's sake, you have to jump through more hoops to get a driver's license and car than you do to buy an AKM!). However, I also do not believe that taking guns away from people is the way to stop crime or deter suicide.

Vivien · Post by **Vivien** » Thu May 23, 2002 6:43 am

Originally posted by Beldin

(b) the fact that I own a gun and use it for sporting purposes doesn't mean I'm a homicidal maniac waiting to go on a rampage -

So you say. I'll believe what I believe from the safety of Minnesota until I'm proven false

Truthfully, on the whole gun issue... There are alot of other ways people can kill themselves, alot of other accidental deaths that far outweight the number of accidental deaths by guns, like car accidents...

And I don't see us banning cars

I used to be completely anti-gun. I believed guns were only used by inbred right-wing red-neck loonies down south like Bloodstalker.* *hug*

I believed the world would be a better place with everyone gun free, drunk and naked. NOW, I think that it is sometimes necessary to have guns, especially as a police officer. I also think that in the US...we haven't been able to slow down illegal sales of guns, so it is nice to have legal gun owners out there in case some murderer comes my way...

I have a few other theories, but the work people are getting suspicious of my rapid typing while doing just 'paper work'. *hug*

*The smiley face and hug should give note to the fact that I am teasing southerners in general and Bloodstalker in specific. I do not feel this way about southerners, I am merely expanding my teasing area to include not just English people, but people within my own country.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Thu May 23, 2002 6:47 am

Originally posted by Vivien

So you say. I'll believe what I believe from the safety of Minnesota until I'm proven false

I believed the world would be a better place with everyone gun free, drunk and naked.

Minnesota, you say? Hmm...

Agreed on the drunk and naked part, though.

Vivien · Post by **Vivien** » Thu May 23, 2002 6:56 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Minnesota, you say? Hmm...

Agreed on the drunk and naked part, though.

We can start a movement, maybe have peaceful demonstrations until everyone joins us!

...'course this would mean that Minnesota would have no people as it's too darn cold for that.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Thu May 23, 2002 7:03 am

Just never knew you lived in Minnesota until now.

That explains why I couldn't get to that slumber party we were going to have...And you were going to do my hair(which is long enough to do) and everything.

We'll have to hold the demonstrations here, during the summer then. It's the middle of winter right now, but it's nice and toasty during the summer.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Thu May 23, 2002 7:13 am

Originally posted by Vivien
...'course this would mean that Minnesota would have no people as it's too darn cold for that.

Maybe if everyone huddled together to generate heat . . .

Archeron · Post by **Archeron** » Thu May 23, 2002 7:13 am

In my opinion, and do take it at face value, is that guns make it sooo easy to kill yourself or others. No pain, all over before you know it, not like slitting wrists etc.. that requires deep commitment (and therefore a deep underlying problem). I think the availability of guns is the issue.

New laws? New restrictions? (I'm sure this has been analysed about a million times before).

How this is implemented is another story, I'll leave that to the politicians(actually earn some of their fat pay cheques).

Archeron · Post by **Archeron** » Thu May 23, 2002 7:16 am

What are you talking about Ode!!! middle of winter!!! in perth!!!Australia!!!!, the whol countries a giant desert bowl.
Can't be that cold if ask me, probably doesn't get below 15,

Vivien · Post by **Vivien** » Thu May 23, 2002 7:18 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Just never knew you lived in Minnesota until now. That explains why I couldn't get to that slumber party we were going to have...And you were going to do my hair(which is long enough to do) and everything.

We'll have to hold the demonstrations here, during the summer then. It's the middle of winter right now, but it's nice and toasty during the summer.

Ah...Australia...This explains a few things...

Yep, I remember you have long hair and it's red too. But I win because mine's longer.

HLD: Rofl

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Thu May 23, 2002 7:19 am

Originally posted by HighLordDave

Maybe if everyone huddled together to generate heat . . .

Don't forget to RUB against each other....it's the friction that generates the heat

@Viv: *hug* - even if you don't trust me

Ode to a Grasshopper · Thu May 23, 2002 7:20 am

Originally posted by Vivien

Where on earth do you live? I hope it's the carribean, so far I haven't met SYMer from the carribean and it's been a dissapointing search thus far...

Yep, I remember you have long hair and it's red too. But I win because mine's longer.

But I win because where I live is listed below my avatar and you didn't notice.

And mine's curly.

Okay, you still win. Long hair rocks.

@Archie-It's more like 2 degrees celsius outside right now.

Vivien · Post by **Vivien** » Thu May 23, 2002 7:24 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
But I win because where I live is listed below my avatar and you didn't notice. And mine's curly.

Okay, you still win. Long hair rocks.

@Archie-It's more like 2 degrees celsius outside right now.

I always assume people lie on those, but yes, I noticed it a bit too late

I mean Weasel's location changes at an alarming rate... Kid says he's under my house, but I've looked (with kitchen knife in hand just in case) and there were only boxes and basement cracks...

Beldin: Well, I did start spamming your thread, which one shouldn't do with a gun owning maniac.

*hug* *wonders if he's going to shoot her now*