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Could Bush have prevented the 9-11 attacks?

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Could Bush have prevented the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks?

A vast right-wing conspiracy is beginning to unravel!
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A vast right-wing conspiracy is beginning to unravel!
13
46%
A vast right-wing conspiracy is beginning to unravel!
13
46%
A vast right-wing conspiracy is beginning to unravel!
2
7%
 
Total votes: 28

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fable
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by HighLordDave
I would hardly call Antietam a significant victory (the Confederates carried the field, but stopped their invasion of Maryland);
With respect, it's so considered in every historical review of the war, its battles, and Antietam itself that I've read. From the Confederate Military History, a typical example:

"The battles and marches of the preceding months had greatly depleted Lee's army, and his wounded, footsore, and straggling men were strung all along through Virginia from Richmond to the Potomac, so that he could bring but 35,000 wearied, half-clad and half-starved men into the battle of Sharpsburg; against these, McClellan had hurled 60,000 well-equipped, well-fed and well-cared-for men, while 27,000 more were held in full view and could have been thrown into the contest. Four of his corps were not only routed, but scattered; and he could not collect them to renew the battle."

Jubal Early dissented, but he had a well-deserved reputation as a man who refused to admit defeat for himself or his cause under any circumstances, and would go to extraordinary lengths to circumvent the facts on paper and in the field. No, Antietam struck at two things the South could not afford to lose: the momentum, and soldiers. It was the first battle that began to cripple the South in both these strategic fashions, IMO.

The formal Emancipation Proclamation was issued on 1 January 1863 after the Union debacle at Fredericksburg and, in my opinion, was a maneuver of desperation to keep the British from coming to the aid of the Confederacy. By elevating the war from a civil war to a moral imperative to eliminate slavery, Lincoln knew the British (who completed a gradual and compensated program of abolition in 1825) would not openly support the Rebellion with military aid....

But this is what I said, above. :)

His position was made even worse by people who felt betrayed by the Emancipation Proclamation; the were in it to save the Union, not free slaves. Without the staunch grass-roots support of the abolitionist movement (secured through the Emanicpation Proclamation), he would have been ousted from office in the middle of the war.

Again, I wrote as much. Lincoln couldn't rely upon the Copperheads (peace Democrats) for the vote, not with McClellan running as a Democrat, while the aboltionists were already putting forth several candidates as Lincoln's successor. Issuing the EP was a very canny move on the President's part, since it squelched abolitionist dissension for a time. I don't doubt it was also a moral move, though Lincoln was neither a member of, nor believer in any established church. But his timing was that of a politican honed in the rough political arena of the Midwest.

Dubya has shown that he is weak on domestic issues and has expended a lot of political capital on his tax "refund", withdrawing from the ABM treaty and building that ridiculous ballistic missile shield (read: sinecure for his defense-industry buddies). If the economy doesn't turn around, he'll be in trouble come November. I think that this latest round of announcements by government officials about a imminent (but unforseen) terrorist attack is a two fold strategy: first, to warn us that someone, someday, somewhere will kill more Americans on US soil, and second, to keep the "war" on terrorism on the front burner and not have to talk about issues on which the president is weak. Dubya's strength right now is the"war" on terrorism, but on everything else he is at best mediocre and at worst a liability for the Republicans.

It is instructive to realize that Dubyah has not been requested to campaign in support of nearly all Congressional and gubenatorial Republicans this year. When a president is viewed as popular, typically they stump for the party; but Bush's popularity is a one-note kind, and he has made many enemies in the Republican ranks with high-pressure tactics, public slights, and a series of policies that sacrifice the mid- and longterm for shortterm goals (like the steel and wood tarriffs). Most Republicans I've seen and heard campaigning aren't even mentioning him; a clear indicator of their desire to distance themselves from somebody whose naivety about the world and its ways surpasseth even that of Jimmy Carter in the 1980s.
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Quark
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Post by Quark »

Bah, Emancipation Proclamation. Tell me, what did the EP actually do? Supposedly it freed all the slaves in the South, right?

That ignores the fact that Lincoln had no sovereignty in the South! He couldn't free slaves in the South because he had no control over the south. The EP was just one big publicity stunt that everyone fell for.

Makes you wonder, though: was Lincoln a genius, or are populations just idiots?
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Post by HighLordDave »

The Emanicpation Proclamation was a move of political genius on the part of Lincoln. First of all, by only freeing the slaves in those states in rebellion, it didn't alienate Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri, slave states that remained loyal to the Union. Second, it elevated the war from one of saving the Union to a moral cause and kept foreign governments (who had all eliminated slavery themselves) from assisting the Confederacy. Third, it guaranteed that slavery in the United States would end.

The Republican Party was founded in 1848(?) as the party of abolition, but Lincoln was a pragmatist; he wanted slavery to end, but didn't want to divide the country to do it. However, with the rebellion in full swing, he was free to singlehandedly eliminate slavery without having to wait for a constitutional amendment; by the time the 13th Amendment was passed, abolition was a fait acompli.

To answer your question: Both.
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fable
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Post by fable »

@Quark, I agree here completely with HLD. The EP did several things brilliantly on a political level. First, it killed whatever chance the Confederacy had of getting British diplomatic recognition (and active military support), barring a stunning upset that made it look like the South was about to win. Second, it cut the rug out from under those aboltionists, notably Salmon Chase, his Treasury Secretary, who desperately craved the Office of the Presidency, and who were already forming powerful party combinations to rock Lincoln from his leadership at the next national convention.

Finally, perhaps most importantly and insidiously, it added a moral dimension to a war which was, when you came right down to it, a constitutional matter of states seeking to leave a union they had freely joined at one time. Lincoln hoped that this would cause a sizable portion of the South to turn on their leaders, since he believed Southern elements below the aristocratic level were truly opposed to slavery--a major conceptual error on his part; but at least this particular miscalculation didn't harm any of the other achievements of the EP.
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Post by fable »

As for news agencies try CNN, CBS, FOX ect.

@Island, hi. The organizations you refer to above are not news bureaus or agencies; they are simply news broadcasting arms of networks. This can be likened to games distribution stores like Electronic Boutique: that chain is simply on the receiving end of materials, and is itself a retail distributor to the public. In fact, if you watch the reports on CNN, the BBC, CBS, FOX, etc, you'll find that many of the same correspondents provide only slightly different content, redited for the broadcaster's time needs and "style."

The major content providers of general news are AP, UPI, Reuters, France-Presse, allAfrica, HR-News, Mercopress, and Canada Newswire. (I know I'm leaving out the major source of Asian consumer news, but I've forgotten it at the moment.) Each tends to have its geographical specialty.

I've looked over their Internet and library archives, and (more briefly) those of the major distributors on US television, such as CNN, CBS and FOX. I've seen no retractions such as you state concerning Bush and the possible withholding of information pertinent to the September hijackings. If you have leads on these, please provide them. My suspicion is that you may have seen a particular congressman or public official make a statement which he or she later retracted; but the last major media retraction to my knowledge (which is admittedly very limited) concerned the so-called Tailhook Scandal of the late 90's.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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