Dutch Politcian Assasinated

Rudar Dimble · Post by **Rudar Dimble** » Mon May 06, 2002 11:29 am

Today (6th of May), the Dutch politican Pim Fortuyn was shot down. He died an hour later, although this hasn´t been confirmed yet. Fortuyn was our (I come form the Netherlands) most right-winged politician. Always struggling with media and other politicians.

Holland is shocked and so am I. I really disliked the man for his ideas, but at this time I am ashamed to be Dutch.

Things like this shouldn´t happen in Holland.

Words can´t explain how I feel.

Rest in Peace Pim Fortuyn.

Kameleon · Post by **Kameleon** » Mon May 06, 2002 11:33 am

Comiserations to all his friends and family - noone deserves to die.

Who killed him? It wasn't anything to do with the French election result was it? (As in to stop him getting into as high a position as Le Pen, I doubt he was)

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Mon May 06, 2002 11:44 am

I havn't heard anything about it. Can you post a link to the whole story?

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Mon May 06, 2002 11:47 am

@Kameleon, Well politics work a bit different here. He would not have been in charge, but his politic party was getting pretty big. So he would have had a lot of infuence.

On to who killed him. First of, no one knows for sure. Well, people thought of him as a rasict, but he said he wasn't. His "plannes" were to close the Dutch borders for refugies. He also talked about the Islam to be a "stupid culture", and people who lived here who followed it were a problem for society if they didn't integrate.
So I'd search for a possible shooter in that direction.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Mon May 06, 2002 12:03 pm

@Vicsun:
Some of our European friends may be able to find links with better coverage from across the pond than CNN offers, but you can go here for the story.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon May 06, 2002 2:14 pm

As much as I dislike Fortuyn's anti-immigrant messages, he certainly didn't deserve to be murdered. Murder is never a solution to political problems.

Not many details regarding suspects are public yet, according to the BBC there is one unconfirmed report of a suspect being detained. Eye witnesses report they have seen one single gunman.

Opinion polls indicated that 15% of the Dutch voters supported Fortuyn's politics of no muslim immigration and a harder line against crimes. Like the other ultra right wing politicians in Europe, Fortuyn had a populist message, connecting immigration with problems is society such as crime and unemployment. Playing on people's discontent and worries, the ultra right has had increasing popularity in Europe after the 9/11 attack.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Mon May 06, 2002 2:32 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans

Like the other ultra right wing politicians in Europe, Fortuyn had a populist message, connecting immigration with problems is society such as crime and unemployment. Playing on people's discontent and worries, the ultra right has had increasing popularity in Europe after the 9/11 attack.

I don't feel like he did that. I wasn't gonna vote for him but he had some good points.

He said that there were to many immigrats for a small country as small as the Netherlands. There is a problem with integratetion and he poited that out but I don't think he blames "them" for current problems. He blames the coalition that has been in controle for 8 years now.
His main points of campain were problems that didn't get fixed in those 8 years. Like the waiting list for medical care, people acctually die unnesesary. He also pointed out school quality, safety etc.

The media and the other politic parties have positionised (?) him as a racist. But he has indeed said things that were racistic.

He did actually get threats about his safety. "If I get murdered, they are also responsible. They created this kind of atmosfear against me" And to be hounest, he did have a point.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Mon May 06, 2002 3:06 pm

My condolences to the mans family, like it has been said, no one deserves to die due to their politics.

One thing I have noticed is how suddenly right-wing politics has exploded. Le Penn gaining support in France, Hollands right-wing gaining support (as you have said) and in Burnley how British Nationalist Party has gained seats on the local council.

There seems to be a lot of right-wing support floating around, and I reiterate what has been said, it is because of September 11th. It seems like years ago, but the problem is, it isn't. It plays on the mind of people and having politicians suggesting that a race coming into their own country could cause similar devestation is the reason for so much of their support.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon May 06, 2002 3:06 pm

Originally posted by Rob-hin
I don't feel like he did that. I wasn't gonna vote for him but he had some good points.

Maybe Swedish and British media have exaggregated his political stance? The following quotes are reasons why I think he had populistic and discriminating messages appealing to people's discontent:

- He has written a book with the title "Against islamification of our culture" and he thought the "Dutch culture is becoming islamified"
- refugees "should be happy and grateful for a tent and some food"
- The goverment ought to "help drug abusers to take an overdose"

Is this not correct? Did he never say that?

Rudar Dimble · Post by **Rudar Dimble** » Mon May 06, 2002 4:17 pm

No, not really. He has written a book called: "8 Years of purple mess". Purple is the color of our current coalition.

Although he said some bad things about foreigners, you surely couldn´t call him a racist (i am pretty left-winged, and even I would not dare to call him racist).

What was 'wrong' about the man in my opinion:
-he could not stand critics
-he would not listen to the arguments others made
-he was very short-sighted
-he was arrogant

But that does NOT justify killing him!!!

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon May 06, 2002 5:42 pm

I've been trying to find websites in Dutch that quote Fortuyn's flashier and uglier statements, without success. From what I've read and heard, he was rather like some of the Austrian and Italian political figures: a populist who will say anything that appeals to nationalist prejudices in a perfect 10 second soundbite, changing his message according to his audience. I don't get the sense that was a committed far right candidate like Le Pen; in a way, he was more dangerous, a demagogue who knew how to play the anti-immigration card (he wanted zero immigration) for votes.

EDIT: The BBC ran pieces of an interview (in English) with Fortuyn just a few minutes ago; and as they put it (rather bluntly), he did "play the racist card." His claim that many Arabs were living in Holland for thirty years without learning Dutch was debatable, at best; but he then went on to say that culturally, it was impossible for Arabs to become part of the European countries they were immigrating to, since Islam was "outside modernity" unlike Judaism and Christianity: about a bland and broad a smear as one could create.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon May 06, 2002 6:03 pm

@Rudar Dimble: How strange. Several different sources (UK, Austrian, Swedish) say he has written a book with the title "Against the islamisation of our society". Sure media is always biased in some way or another, but it happens very rarely that common newspapers just make things up. Has he written more than one book? Is the book published under more than one title or has it changed title? Or do you think it's a total media red herring?

Some quotes I have seen in media, such as "Moroccan boys never steal from Moroccons, have you noticed that?", calling Islam a "backward culture", certainly sound like cultural racism - (biological racism is quite unfashionable these days).

According to media, he was even fired as a leader for the Livable Netherlands party because he wanted to change the first amendment in the Netherlands constitution about equal right to all regardless of gender, religion or etnicity and also uttering insulting comments about Muslims.

The above, I've found in US, UK and European news. To me, it sounds like the guy was just a more sophisticated version of the typical ultra right wings, as I described in my post above. His anti-immigrant politics and message that immigrants who don't want to conform to native Dutch culture are causing problems in society, sounds exactly like the xenophobic ultraright in the rest of Europe - immigrants should conform, otherwise they are not welcome and immigrants are the ones who should change, rather than the society being changed to suit more different kinds of people. Apart from being unusually sophisticated, it seems to me like the only atypical thing about him was that he was openly gay, whereas most ultrarights are homophobics.

Maybe this is wrong, I only have access to information through media since I haven't been in the Netherlands for ages. I'd be interested to hear more comments from you Dutch people here on SYM, perhaps you have access to more reliable information?

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Tue May 07, 2002 1:22 am

Fortuyn was, indeed, not much of a racist or a right-wing nut. His ideas came from all over the political spectrum, left and right.
It's always been my impression that he said the things he said for shockvalue. Combine this to the fact that he knew, better than most orthodox politicians, about the sentiments of the public and that he knew very well how to use his charisma and you have a politician to be reckoned with. Also, a kind of politician the rest of the Dutch political establishment didn't know what to do with.

I always thought no-one was more opposed to Fortuyns line of thinking than I am; boy, was I ever wrong. The guy they arrested, the shooter, appears to have been working alone and was known to the Dutch secret service as a left-wing extremist. This last thing hasn't been confirmed yet.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Tue May 07, 2002 3:11 am

Originally posted by C Elegans
[B 1. How strange. Several different sources (UK, Austrian, Swedish) say he has written a book with the title "Against the islamisation of our society". Sure media is always biased in some way or another, but it happens very rarely that common newspapers just make things up. Has he written more than one book?

2. Some quotes I have seen in media, such as "Moroccan boys never steal from Moroccons, have you noticed that?", calling Islam a "backward culture", certainly sound like cultural racism - (biological racism is quite unfashionable these days).

3. According to media, he was even fired as a leader for the Livable Netherlands party because he wanted to change the first amendment in the Netherlands constitution about equal right to all regardless of gender, religion or etnicity and also uttering insulting comments about Muslims.
[/b]

1. Yes, he did write more books. I don't know the title of another then Rudar named, but he wrote more indeed.

2. This is a good example of the kind of things he said. That is racism indeed. He called the islam a out of date religion, one that doesn't work in Western Europe. He claimed that they have problems integrating in our country, since many don't speak Dutch. (edit: and don't try to learn) Another thing he talked about was the fact that immigrants didn't marry a girl that lives here already. But always get a girl from their land of origine, cause they want a humble wife who will do what they say.

3. He was the leader of Livable Netherland, untill he got kicked out for saying he wanted to teminate the first amendment. This rule makes it illigal to make racist remarks. They he formed his own party Lijst Pim Fortuyn. (named after himself)

Rudar Dimble · Post by **Rudar Dimble** » Tue May 07, 2002 7:43 am

@Rob-hin. Funny, in real-life we once ´discussed´ Pim Fortuyn. I attacking him, you defending him (although it wasn´t really a discussion). Now you attack him and I defend him.
I still don´t think you can call him a racist. A racist to me is someone who´s thought´s fundations are racial. Fortuyn wanted to create another kind of Holland. A live-able Holland. He thought that it was nessecary to do this with the current community. He thought that it isn´t possible to change fundamental things into an ever-changing group. Therefore immigration was to be put on halt.
About getting rid of the 1st amandement. I study laws and what he wanted to change was more freedom of speach. This does NOT mean that you could just be a racist in public. There are many other amandements in our law that protect that. So it is wrong to say:" He wanted to change the 1st amandement so that you can make racist statements."
He just wanted more freedom of speach.

About the books: I looked it up, and indeed he wrote several books (about 10). I don´t know the contents of this books, but none of this SYM members do. So I think it is wrong to judge a book just on it´t title.

But again I say: I really disliked the man, but he made politics much more interesting.

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Tue May 07, 2002 7:56 am

Freedom of speech he may have wanted, but in limited way.
I don't think Fortuyn has ever been in a debate where he let other people finish a sentence. He also had the habit of walking out of such debates when he was contradicted too much. Freedom of speech doesn't mean a lot if you don't let others speak.

Rudar Dimble · Post by **Rudar Dimble** » Tue May 07, 2002 8:03 am

That´s one of the main reasons i disliked him. He also kept saying:'I can have my own opinion about everything'.
But he forgot that OTHER people had the right to have their opinion about him. That´s what I meant with ´short-sighted´

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Tue May 07, 2002 9:15 am

I'm trying to figure out if I should go and join the "stille tocht" tonight, here in Rotterdam.
I thoroughly disliked Pim Fortuyn so it might be a bit hypocrite to go. Then again, it's not just about Fortuyn. I truly believe democracy and freedom of speech have been attacked by this incident as well.

Rudar Dimble · Post by **Rudar Dimble** » Tue May 07, 2002 10:04 am

It sure is hypocrit. I think such a thing is only for people who supported him.

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Tue May 07, 2002 10:26 am

Well, I guess you could argue that such a thing is for all people, since it's not just about Fortuyn. I don't think there are a lot of people in Holland who are unaffected by this. There will be consequences. Political, but also personal. People are angry and scared and joining together in a time like this might be beneficial. Like I stated above, I absolutely disliked the man and his ideas, but seeing so many people standing together in front of City Hall was somehow comforting.