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Boycott Israel - No Spam

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Morlock
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Post by Morlock »

Originally posted by C Elegans
However, I find it difficult to comprehend how a person like Sharon could be elected prime minister.

Thats easy- he was great compared to his predecessor. People hated Barak- so Sharon was elected. Same thing with Barak- people hated Netanyahu- Barak was elected.

I think the fact that we have had 5 Prime Ministers in seven years- 3 from the left wing, 2 from the right wing, proves how this problem does not have any remotely clear solution.

BTW- About Peres- he is a joke here. He once asked a News guy Am I a Loser? and now people use that frase to make fun of him.
He has never won anything in his life. He was PM twice, once because of a resignation, once because of an assasination. He was voted out the following year in both cases.
He was nominated two years ago for President, and he was expected to win an outstanding victory- he lost.
He has little respect amongst the people.
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fable
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by C Elegans
However, I find it difficult to comprehend how a person like Sharon could be elected prime minister.
I am more and more convinced that democracy is a generic smokescreen for a plutocracy exercised by those who have not only money, the right sort of education and connections, but an implicit understanding of simple emotive issues that will grab voters who can focus on nothing else--and certainly nothing longterm.

I see only two potential solutions to the current crisis in Israel: either both sides come to terms with their coexistence and build up a legacy of trust, or the Israeli government wipes out/deports all of the Palestinians--and not just the 3 million who are outside its borders, now. At this point, agreements on paper will mean nothing, since neither side believes whatever the other says. And I am under no illusions that either Arafat or Sharon possesses the intelligence, vision or abilty to change the path that is being taken at this point.
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Post by Jace »

@Tom
Originally posted by Gruntboy
Embargo Iraq and you're a racist who hates muslims.

Embargo Israel and you're anti-semetic.

No?


I think what Grunty is getting at here is that if you ask for an embargo on a country, you are automatically accused of being a racist or a bigot or of having some other agenda besides protesting against that country's actions. Is seems to be impossible to separate religious intolerance and genuine dismay at specific actions when you are dealing with countries like Iraq and Israel. If you stand up and say "what you are doing is wrong" then the counter argument always seems to be "You wouldn’t say that if you did not hate me (and my religion), and so your arguments are meaningless".

These views get fed back into the political process and countries like the UK end up in an endless dialog that goes nowhere and results in little (or nothing) being done.

As for my view:
There will never be an embargo on China as it is a major player in the world economy at the moment. Too many billions of trade dollars are at stake to take risks antagonizing it.
The UK will always follow the lead of the US in the middle east (to the detriment of its position in the EU). If the US places an embargo on Israel (Ha Ha), then the UK will do the same. It the US lift sanctions on Iraq (Double Ha Ha), the UK will follow.

As a consumer, I could stop buying products from a particular country, but (with the exception of food) it is often very difficult to find out where a product is made. If you buy something like a TV or a computer or a moblie phone, the bits and pieces come from all over the world. Even with clothes, you are relying on acurate labeling and the place of manufacture is not always where the cloth is woven. I prefer to concentrate to trying to buy organically produced/Fair Trade type items as that way more of the money goes back to the producers.

I try to limit my politial activities to protesting against my own government and trying to get my own back yard cleaned up before I start to pretend that I am wise enough to fix up anyone elses problems.
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Xan deVir
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Post by Xan deVir »

In my personal opinion, Arafat is just another terrorist who should be killed in his own style - taking no responsibility for actions... It would sound this way on news: "Yasser Arafat was assassinated by Israeli extremists, the Israeli government will do *everything* in order to find the killers and bring them to justice" - Terror organizations aren't partners for negotiation and it's definitely that sometimes civilians are killed or injured but it's unavoidable.

"massacre in Jenin"... The palestinian brainwash system works well, even that many Israelis started to believe in that crap, but what about the 20+ weapon factories that were found there... so, certainly, donate them more money so they will be able to produce better weapons and more of them!
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fable
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Post by fable »

In my personal opinion, Arafat is just another terrorist...

Please define "terrorist," @Xan. I'm not at this point arguing or agreeing with you. I want to identify how you use the word. Thanks.
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Morlock
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Post by Morlock »

Originally posted by C Elegans
According to the Geneva condition no country is allowed occupie territory it has won in war regardless if that country was the first who attacked or not.
Well, then technicaly, the land should either be returned to Syria, Egypt and Jordan, or they should have been considered occupying forces.

@Fable: As I've said before- I unfortunatley agree with you- my problem is that I don't see any individual on any side- in any country who could find an acceptable solution. Both sides want 50.01 pecent- it can't work.
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fable
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by Morlock
As I've said before- I unfortunatley agree with you- my problem is that I don't see any individual on any side- in any country who could find an acceptable solution. Both sides want 50.01 pecent- it can't work.
The untractrable problem is that both sides can point with reason to a history of broken promises and acts of extralegal conquest or terrorism on the part of the other. The vicious acts committed by one are justified by the demonization of the opponent who has always done worse. It's a cycle that only seems to end when one side vanishes or both sides slide termporarily into exhaustion. I can't find any other historical solutions for this kind of situation.
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Post by Gruntboy »

Originally posted by fable
Please define "terrorist," @Xan. I'm not at this point arguing or agreeing with you. I want to identify how you use the word. Thanks.
One man's terrorist... ;)
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Post by Jace »

@Xan,

I have to say that I compleately and totaly disagree with you - without saying that I support any side in this conflict.

If you follow the path of an eye for an eye on a national scale then fairly soon everyone will be blind (I would credit this quote, but I am not sure who said it first. I am not wise enough to come up with it). The Palestinians are not terrorists in their own eyes. The Israelies are only protecting their sovernty. Each side feel that they have been wronged by the other, and they both have cases.

It takes outrage and courage and committment to fight a war.
It takes much more courage, committment, wisdom and not a small amount of humility to stop fighting, especially where you still hate each other.

Untill both sides can get rid of the outrage and gain wisdom and humilty I have little hope of seeing any lasting peace.
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C Elegans
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Post by C Elegans »

@Xan de vir: I agree with Fable, please describe more detailed how you define a "terrorist" and what Arafat has done that you think he qualifies as one. I do however not agree with your opinion.
Originally posted by Morlock
Well, then technicaly, the land should either be returned to Syria, Egypt and Jordan, or they should have been considered occupying forces.

@Fable: As I've said before- I unfortunatley agree with you- my problem is that I don't see any individual on any side- in any country who could find an acceptable solution. Both sides want 50.01 pecent- it can't work.
Technically yes, and this is also my personal opinion. The land should be retured to Syria, Egypt and Jordan, and then those countries should decide whether they want to make it part of a Palestinian state, include it again in their own territores, or something else.

Morlok, I think you show great insight despite your extremely difficult situation.
At the moment, I see no solution to the conflict, but I certainly think the conflict can never be resolved unless a Palestinian state is created - which IMO should have been done back in 1947.
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Xan deVir
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Post by Xan deVir »

@fable
terrorist = a person who uses terror (suicide bombers, assaults on civilians*) or accepts the usage of it to achieve his political goals.
* when civilians use weapons or assists terror organizations they give a full legitimation to the armed forces to shoot them on sight.
Originally posted by fable

It's a cycle that only seems to end when one side vanishes or both sides slide termporarily into exhaustion. I can't find any other historical solutions for this kind of situation.
-I TOTALLY agree with you.

@Jace
I must agree that many Palestinians aren't terrorists, however, their leaders are.
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Morlock
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Post by Morlock »

Well I have to go now, but...

@Anyone: Could you put this 'Boycott on Israel', in your own perspective, against the suicide bombing and shootings of Israeli civilians? since I have yet to see a Thread/reply saying 'Boycott the Palestinian authority' or something to that effect.
Food for thought.
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fable
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by Xan deVir
@fable
terrorist = a person who uses terror (suicide bombers, assaults on civilians*) or accepts the usage of it to achieve his political goals.
@Xan, I'm having trouble thinking of an indiginous ethnic minority that has ever achieved its own national identity without deliberate acts of terrorism, if not outright war. Ditto, new governments (not a new party) that have ever come to power without the same. (Communist Eastern Europe doesn't count, since state-sponsored terrorism kept the Communists in power, in the first place.)

If I'm right and terrorism is always employed, does that mean that all revolutions and new, ethnic states are based on morally repugnant principles?
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Xan deVir
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Post by Xan deVir »

@Morlock
embargo the palestinian authority! don't buy their hand grenades ;)
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Post by frogus »

I completely agree with CE, and partially with Fable. I'm sure CE can argue my position well enough, and for now I cannot say anything really useful which hasn't been said and is not about to be said, apart from recomend that all of you join Amnesty International, and then read their report)sory it's very long) and contribute to the campaign, expressing your demands to high rankers in the USA, IDF and UN. @Mods, am I allowed to post the contact details for politicians etc, assuming they are public already?
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Post by frogus »

and @ Xan, the Palestinians do not sell weapons. They (the active fighters) fight with arms supplied indirectly through smuggling by the USA.
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fable
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by frogus
@Mods, am I allowed to post the contact details for politicians etc, assuming they are public already?
I don't know that this is the appropriate place for that kind of lobbying, @Frogus, with due respect. However, you're welcome to point people to some central website which either contains this material, or links off to a bunch of political contact sites.
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Xan deVir
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Post by Xan deVir »

@frogus
I know they don't sell weapons, they produce weapons for their own use.
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Post by Weasel »

Originally posted by frogus
and @ Xan, the Palestinians do not sell weapons. They (the active fighters) fight with arms supplied indirectly through smuggling by the USA.
Is this your opinion or do you have proof?

The last time I watched the news a ship from IRAN was on the way to "supply the freedom fighters.
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Post by EMINEM »

Originally posted by fable


I am more and more convinced that democracy is a generic smokescreen for a plutocracy exercised by those who have not only money, the right sort of education and connections, but an implicit understanding of simple emotive issues that will grab voters who can focus on nothing else--and certainly nothing longterm.
In that case, fable, can I have your vote? I'm sure I can put it to good use. :)
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