Boycott Israel - No Spam

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed May 01, 2002 6:17 am

In my opinion this should have been done along time ago but this is surely the last straw.

The ‘this’ is not allowing UN inspectors into investigate the alleged massacre in Jenin.

Israel with the support of the US have for years ignored UN resolutions - it must be time that the international community takes action. Hopefully the European Union will get their finger out and impose sanctions - now.

I have never understood how one can condone what Israel is doing. I guess there are people out there that disagree with me so maybe you could explain?

Or maybe you dont think sanctions is a good idea - whatever your opinion is I would like to hear it.

(And of course whether you are for or against keep it polite)

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed May 01, 2002 6:34 am

Could you post a more detailed list of the things Israel has done prior to this? I only really have a general idea.

The problem with sanctions is that the people who are causing the problems are usually the last people affected by them.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed May 01, 2002 6:41 am

Everything Israel has done in the past, they have done with the approval, tacit or explicit, of the United States. It would not take international sanctions to get Israel to change its tune, it would only take the threat of the US blocking the sale of parts for Israel's fleet of F-16 fighters and AH-64 attack helicopters to get Ariel Sharon to change his stance.

This of course will not happen because of our traditional support of Israel based upon the power and influence of the Jewish bloc vote in the United States. This is especially true of a president who was elected without a majority of the popular vote and cannot afford to alienate a powerful constituency going into the mid-term elections. Dubya's impotence in Israel is heightened by his past history of reversing all of the Clinton administration's policies in the middle east and he cannot backtrack without admitting (through his actions) that he was wrong.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed May 01, 2002 6:41 am

Interesting that you should start this thread, I was just about to start a thread regarding the events in Jenin. Yesterday, Israel again rejected the UN fact finding committe because it does not fulfill Israels demands. Israel does not only have demans on what people the committe should consist of, even though I have noticed this is what US media has focused most on. Much worse IMO is that Israel demands that the committe should only be allowed to talk to Israeli soldiers selected by Israel. They further demand that no conclusions shall be drawn from the investigations, and they want control over the report.

I refuse to use the term "massacre", this is a typical media term that is very inprecise but has a stong sound to it. However, there is no doubt that violations of the Geneva convention and human rights have occured in Jenin. It is confirmed that Israel has committed war crimes, such as cutting of water and electricity in Jenin and prohibiting medical care also after the attacks. Human rights watch have found 52 bodies so far, whereof at least 21 were civilians. This and several other events should be subject to investigation.

There has been demands for a national boycott of Israel in Sweden. Most people I know, have already choosen to boycott Israeli products. Lists of companies and brands to avoid is circulating on e-mail.

Although I have chosen to boycott Israeli products for a long time now, I really don't generally believe in sanctions as a means to put pressure on a nation. In many cases, like apartheid South Africa, it has little or no effect. Often, like in Iraq, it's the local population that will suffer most from the sanction. So IMO sanctions at international level must be analysed and evaluated, and alternative strategies must be added depending on the situations. Personally, boycott is one of the few things I can do as an individual, so that's what I do.

Robnark · Post by **Robnark** » Wed May 01, 2002 6:51 am

i would be against large scale sanctions on the whole, mainly because of the reasons already outlined, but also i believe political pressure to control the situation could be far more effective from a friend of israel - a country that the government would be willing to cooperate with - than from a country that is seen to be actively cutting ties with israel, instead of trying to enforce a palatable and quick cessation to the violence with the cooperation of all parties.

to impose sanctions runs the risk of enforcing a siege mentality among those israelis already hit hard by the violence, and bolster further support for sharon's heavy handed military response.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed May 01, 2002 7:21 am

I agree that Sanctions are often not effective (Iraq). But I do believe that they can work (Libya). It will be hard for the European Union to go it alone but I think that a gradual escalation of sanctions should be tried - at least for a few years - hopefully the rest of the world would back up around it in time.

Gradually banning imports/exports to the EU would hit Israel hard - it would also serve to send the signal that the west is not always complete hypocrites.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed May 01, 2002 8:06 am

How many people here actually refuse to buy goods manufactured in the so-called People's Republic of China, which has engaged in a genocidal campaign against the people and culture of Tibet for so many years?

It seems awfully fashionable at the moment to boycott Israel, and I'm as horrified and disgusted as anybody with the immunity they possess to world opinion and their inability to come to terms with a large Palestinian population over the years.

But if a boycott's to be more than a kneejerk reaction to recent events, and a reflection of deep-seated, moral disapproval of the actions of a specific regime, I'd expect people to look beyond the myopic news stories. Tibet is out there. The statistics and the living testimony are revolting. Sure, Israel is terrible, but compared to Tibet, it's the destruction of an infrastructure compared to the deliberate and systematic destruction of an entire civilization.

Or are you going to tell me that the Israelis are more malleable to outside pressure than the Chinese?

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed May 01, 2002 8:18 am

Embargo Iraq and you're a racist who hates muslims.

Embargo Israel and you're anti-semetic.

No?

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Wed May 01, 2002 8:20 am

I edited out my reply, since I don't feel like being flamed on this topic.
I'd just like to say this- make an observation between the people of Israel and its government.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed May 01, 2002 8:25 am

Originally posted by fable

But if a boycott's to be more than a kneejerk reaction to recent events, and a reflection of deep-seated, moral disapproval of the actions of a specific regime, I'd expect people to look beyond the myopic news stories. Tibet is out there. The statistics and the living testimony are revolting. Sure, Israel is terrible, but compared to Tibet, it's the destruction of an infrastructure compared to the deliberate and systematic destruction of an entire civilization.

Or are you going to tell me that the Israelis are more malleable to outside pressure than the Chinese?

I agree that China is alot worse than Israel but what is your position on sanctions against Israel fable?

I believe that it is easier to put pressure on Israel than China.

But the subject is not China.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed May 01, 2002 8:28 am

Originally posted by Gruntboy
Embargo Iraq and you're a racist who hates muslims.

Embargo Israel and you're anti-semetic.

No?

No to both.

What is your point?

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed May 01, 2002 8:38 am

Originally posted by Morlock

On the other hand- I don't sympathise with the Palestinians.
I think going in was wrong politicaly- not logicaly.
The results have been proven- there has not been a suicide attack in the past few weeks- and the infurstructure of a number of terrorist groups have been distroyed. I can not feel much sympathy, when I am scared of any Palestinian person I see.
When 5 people in my community, a cousin, and several good ds of mine have been killed in the past few months, I have no sympathy for anyone else. When 4 kids from a school I used to go to were murdered a few days ago, I don't care if Arafat doesn't have electricity.
And when 26 people are killed by a terrorist bomber while sitting down for a Passover dinner, I don't care if there are homeless people in Jenin.

Looking at it from the outside I think the problem is that both side thinks exactly like that.
Women and children have been killed on both sides and both sides feel they have the right to retaliate and kill the enemy for past crimes.

Ultimately its called the occupied territories for a reason. I think a people have a right to defend their country and try to expel an occupying force from that country. 46 years is a long time to sit in a camp and wait to get your country back.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed May 01, 2002 8:39 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Could you post a more detailed list of the things Israel has done prior to this? I only really have a general idea.

That would be a very long list

including various violations against the Geneva convention as well as human rights. One example is Israels use of "physical pressure" in interrogations, no other democracy on earth allows torture. Another example on a larger scale, is the fact that occupation of areas won in war, is now allowed according to the Geneva convention, and Israel is occuping land then have won from Palestine in 1948, Egypt and Jordan in 1967. The West bank, Golan Heights and Gaza are all land that Israel took from Egypt and Jordan in the six days war. You might also want to check out the war crimes in the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, the invasion that made Sharon famous as "the butcher from Lebanon". It's for his role in the killings of village including women and children, that he faces trial for war crimes.

For more recent events, the Mitchell report is the document about the start of the present intifada that both Israel and Palenstine agreed on. Read it here.

After the Oslo peace treaty, Israel promised to withdraw from the occupied territory, but since then, they have instead increased the settlements with 70%.

@Fable: Almost everybody I know (including myself of course) have been boycotting products from China for many years. IMO personal choices of boycott should always be well thought out decisions based on many different sources of information. Also, one needs to update the information often since things might change. In Sweden, at least among the people I know, boycotting of China, Israel and Turkey has been going on for a long time. French products still haven't risen to former heights after the nuclear testing in the Pacific.

Maybe personal boycott is relatively common in Sweden because it's a small politically and financially insignificant country, so people feel boycott is one of the few means we have to demonstrate opinions against injustices.

Personally, I'm the kind of person who don't even visit a country before checking out human rights reports etc. For many years, I boycotted Thailand because the regime acted passively and accepting towards the child prostitution. However, things have changed in Thailand, mostly due to international pressure, and today the country is extremely dependant on attracting normal tourists (as opposed to the sex tourism Thailand was infamous for in the 70's and 80's). Amnesty, Ecpat and other organisations actually recommended me to go to Thailand when I discussed the issue with them 3 years ago, but they all stressed the importance of showing you have demands as a tourist. Ask hotels, bars and restaurants you visit to show their certification that they are members of the "against prostitution" organisation that Thailand has. If they don't have one, encourage them to get one. Talk to the staff, cleaners, waiters etc.
Just an example of how one must re-evaluate ones decisions over time.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Wed May 01, 2002 8:54 am

Much worse IMO is that Israel demands that the committe should only be allowed to talk to Israeli soldiers selected by Israel.

I agree that this is a stupid and ridiculous demand, but not much more so than a soldier with no legal expertiese being called 'Judge' for a mock trial of the four assasins of the Israeli secretary of tourism, who were only put on trial so that they would not be extradited to Israel.

Get you're facts straight- in 1967 Israel was attacked by Egypt Jordan and Syria thats how they got control of Gaza etc.

I totaly agree with you on the settlements. I think that the settlement are stupid in concept- and just making a difficult situation much more so.

About all the agreement- Mitchall, Tenet, Oslo... All involved a decrease, and eventual cease of violence from the Palestinian side. That has yet to happen.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed May 01, 2002 8:54 am

Tom, just pointing out that detractors will always use such logic against embargoes. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Middle East countries don't like sanctions on Iraq, then proponents of Israel are surely allowed to claim the same?

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed May 01, 2002 8:56 am

I remeber reading about the 6-day war, but the news in Oz is all about Oz, with very little attention given to events that happen in the rest of the world

.

@Morlock-I'm certain no-one's blaming the Israeli people for the actions of their government, just the same as no-one's blaming the majority of American people in all the Bush-bashing threads.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed May 01, 2002 9:01 am

The root problem in the middle east right now is that no one is really sure why they're fighting anymore. It's not about being right or having a claim to land; all of the fighting now revolves around vengeance and hatred. In this sort of environment, no one can think clearly, not the Arabs and not the Israelis.

This is far easier said than done, but both sides need to stop harping on how many people have died and how they have been wronged in the past and work contructively towards peace. That said, I haven't lost anyone to an Israeli air assault or a Palistenian suicide bomber, but until someone breaks the cycle of violence, it will continue indefinitely.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed May 01, 2002 9:05 am

Originally posted by Morlock
I edited out my reply, since I don't feel like being flamed on this topic.
I'd just like to say this- make an observation between the people of Israel and its government.

I certainly don't lump the people of Israel together with the Israeli goverment, or rather, with Sharon's hardline politics. (Not everybody in the Knesset seem to agree on his politics, some seems to wish an even harder line, whereas others like Peres seems to suggest a more moderate line).

My impression is that the people of Israel also holds their individual opinions like everybody else. I have heard Israeli people in interviews say that they think the Palestininas are not worthy of existing as a people. Remember the rabbi who said the lives of ten thousand Palestinians are not worth a Jewish fingernail?
I have also heard many (a majority, I believe?) people saying they are pro the creation of a Palestinian state. My strong critisism against the constant, repeated violations of human rights Israel has committed over the past 50 years, is directed to the national policy, not the people as individuals. However, I find it difficult to comprehend how a person like Sharon could be elected prime minister.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed May 01, 2002 9:06 am

Originally posted by Tom

I agree that China is alot worse than Israel but what is your position on sanctions against Israel fable?

I believe that it is easier to put pressure on Israel than China.

But the subject is not China.

No, it isn't. But I'd still like to know whether you, and others here, are already boycotting Chinese products, for the reasons I've already described: the destruction of an entire civilization, vs the destruction of an infrastructure. And if you don't boycott Chinese goods, @Tom, how do you defend this? Do you honestly feel that Israel is going to be hurt more than China by such a boycott? Can you point to a single piece of evidence showing that Israel has ever responded positively to anything besides the occasional political nudge from the US?

@CE, I figured you were already boycotting China. That message wasn't meant for you.

I was more interested in getting a reasoned, thoughtful response out of people before the steamroller emotional effect took over.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed May 01, 2002 9:10 am

Originally posted by Morlock
Get you're facts straight- in 1967 Israel was attacked by Egypt Jordan and Syria thats how they got control of Gaza etc.

I understand this is a very sensitive issue to you Morlock, I know you must be living in constant fear. But please read my post again, I never suggested it was the other countries that attacked Israel, I know it was, but the fact remains:

According to the Geneva condition no country is allowed occupie territory it has won in war regardless if that country was the first who attacked or not.