Buying diplomas? WTF? Please explain...

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 10:57 am

I am fortunate enough to receive very little spam also to my hotmail-address, but recently I got this:

U N I V E R S I T Y D I P L O M A S
Obtain a prosperous future, money earning power,
and the admiration of all.
Diplomas from prestigious non-accredited
universities based on your present knowledge
and life experience.
No required tests, classes, books, or interviews.
Bachelors, masters, MBA, and doctorate (PhD)
diplomas available in the field of your choice.
No one is turned down.
Confidentiality assured.
CALL NOW to receive your diploma
within days!!!
1 - 6 1 5 - 9 8 5 - 0 3 0 4

Obviously you can buy a fake diploma? Or are they real? I don't understand a thing. I know there are so called diploma mills universities in the US where the requirements for getting a diploma is extremly low and you don't have to demonstrate any knowledge in your choosen subject, is this how it works?

Please explain to a curious and naive Swede who comes from a tradition where you must have at least 5 published articles in the peer-reviewed press to be allowed to even send in you application for a PhD.

In Sweden, it would be illegal to falsify diplomas in the manner suggested in the ad above.

KidD01 · Post by **KidD01** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 11:10 am

My dear CE, a friend of mine from one of Asian country(I'd prefer to censor the name of the country to avoid any embarassment and any flame towards me

) told me when we're chatting long time ago that in his/her country Diplomas can be easily bought. But for MD title it's nearly impossible there. The possible title to be bought is Economical & Technical ---> The worst is they even sell Masters Diploma (mostly Economy ones)

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 11:13 am

First off, good to see ya agian luv

Anyway, this is a very disconcerting thing. The fact that people can potentionally be out there with false degrees if concerning, to say the least.

...

I just lost it. I'll be back with a response later...

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 11:18 am

I've thought about posting this too.
Every 3 or 4 day in a row I get those too, the email adress is altered everytime

. Damn the Spam.

KidD01 · Post by **KidD01** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 11:26 am

Just want to add my last reply, FYI the diploma that can be bought comes from well known Univ

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 11:59 am

Hey, CE, didn't you know: you can buy ANYTHING in America!

Seriously, I have to say: who cares? I mean, if people want to fake their education, they really don't need a scrap of paper to do it. How many employers do you know that actually ask for visual verification of a diploma as a basis for a job? They may simply lie on their resume and/or in their interview. And if someone does get a hokey diploma, there are only two possible outcomes: 1) they have no understanding of their field, and are quickly found out as the fraud they are and fired; or, 2) they somehow DO have the knowledge to execute their job, and then who cares whether they have a scrap of paper or not?

In engineering (my field) getting a diploma is only the first step. After that you have to take an exam to become an "engineer in training" (I just took mine - wish me luck!); then you have to work for a "professional engineer" for four years; then you have to take another exam to become a "professional engineer." So, in that respect, you would not see some dude with a fake diploma trying to build bridges or airplanes. I am sure that most "professions" (doctors, lawyers, architects, etc) have similar requirements, so that a fake diploma will not get you very far.

@Kid01: what "well known university" is selling diplomas? I would like to know, so that I never hire anyone from that uni in the future.

Mr Flibble · Post by **Mr Flibble** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:14 pm

I get heaps of these through hotmail too. I just added them to the junk filter. What I find most amusing about it is they started arriving just after I finished my degree.

KidD01 · Post by **KidD01** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:19 pm

Theres' a point from Lazarus reply there :

you can buy ANYTHING

And may I add : As long you've got the money, you can get anything

It's a crazy world nowadays, but since I've been a "bad boy" during my high school days - I know certain stuff which you might said "not a nice thing to know"

(I'm bounded with the forum rules, so this is as far as I can say

)

@Lazarus : Chk PM

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:27 pm

Are we sure this is not someone selling access to the honorary diplomas that are normally awarded for, say, lifetime achievement? For example, IIRC Margaret Thatcher was awarded an honorary degree in Economics, or something, from Oxford University....

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:33 pm

@Yshania: actually, from the tone of the message CE received, my guess would be that the whole thing is a scam for money, and no diploma would be forthcoming even if money was sent. But I know some places do make diplomas very easy to get. I think the honorary diploma thing (as Thatcher and just about every other famous person) is a whole different issue.

@KidD01: got it, thanks.

And, you're right: you can buy anything as long as you got the dough.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:44 pm

@Lazarus - ok, thanks

Fortunately I have only ever witnessed such a scam once, but this was received at work. Someone claiming to be from Africa, and having a lot of money ready to invest in our kind of business (and they had knowledge of what we do, despite the fact we do not have a website) requested some kind of funding to secure a 'lucrative' contract

. Deleted.

If I have ever had any at home, it is gone before it is read. I only open mail from people/organisations I know...

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:05 pm

Originally posted by Yshania
Fortunately I have only ever witnessed such a scam once, but this was received at work. Someone claiming to be from Africa, and having a lot of money ready to invest in our kind of business (and they had knowledge of what we do, despite the fact we do not have a website) requested some kind of funding to secure a 'lucrative' contract . Deleted.

The ever infamous Nigeria spam, this one is particularly ridiculous, give us a few thousand and we will deposit millions in your account or something like that

KidD01 · Post by **KidD01** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:13 pm

Speaking of infamous SPAM mail, remember the Penis Enlargement and Weight Loss SPM ???

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:41 pm

Diplomas from prestigious non-accredited

Here is your answer. No savvy employer or academic institution would be fooled. A waste of money unless you have reason to believe your potential mark has very poor fact checking skills.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:56 pm

@Aegis: Nice to see you too, sweetheart

I don't like the idea of buying false diplomas either, for several reasons. Since it doesn't exist here, I have experience of the risks, so this is just speculation, but:

1. Obviously, selling such diplomas is a way of earning money by fooling people, which of course I dislike. However, this is not a more (or less) serious problem than all marketing of non-working products in general.

2. Lazarus describes that in various professions where it would matter, you wouldn't get very far with a fake diploma unless you know enough to keep up the appearance, in which case it doesn't matter if you hold a diploma or not. However, isn't it possible that a person might get a job and manage to screw something up before the fraud is discovered? I remember reading about a case long ago, where a dentist posed as a plastic surgeon and managed to perform a series of failed surgeries on patients, who only afterwards discovered they had got different health problems due to unprofessional surgery.

3. Perhaps you could use a fake diploma to pose as an expert to non-experts, and use this to sell in a message? For instance, I've noticed that the creationism movement in the US often have spokesmen/women with PhD:s from diploma mill universities. To a layman, it might feel reassuring and safe that a person is a PhD in biology, and the layman won't notice that the spokesman speaks total BS and therefore be easily gullible.

@Lazarus: So, do you think anyone could have any real use for a fake diploma?

@Kid: The diplomas you can buy from well known uni:s, are they forgeries, or are the universities participating in the business?

@Mr Flibble: This is the first mail of its kind I receive. I realise they send them en masse and have no idea who I am, but I found it a bit ironic that they sent it to me who is in the late phase of my PhD at a very well known uni. I'm really in a desperate need of a fake BSc

@Ysh: I'm not sure about other countries, but in Sweden it's more difficult to get a honorary doctorate than a real one since they are awared as you say for life time achievements. Only a few people every year are awared. A real diploma on the other hand, is accessible to anyone who feels like studying some years at uni.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 2:03 pm

Originally posted by Waverly
Here is your answer. No savvy employer or academic institution would be fooled. A waste of money unless you have reason to believe your potential mark has very poor fact checking skills.

Seems like Waverly answered the question I posted to Lazarus, but I don't understand the answer. What is a non-accredited university as opposed to an accredited one? Sorry if my questions are very naive but I'm rather ignorant about non-European education systems. Here, an academic institution must fulfill a certain set of criteria in order to be allowed to call itself a university, and not other institution than universities are allowed to award academic titles like BA/BSC and higher.

KidD01 · Post by **KidD01** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 2:08 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
<SNIP>@Kid: The diplomas you can buy from well known uni:s, are they forgeries, or are the universities participating in the business?<SNIP>

It's legitimate allright, but I can't confirm if the Univ got any part on it - AFAIK from my source it's kinda like a mafia connection of the staffs in that Univ. U only get to provide your high school certificate, & approx USD 250 - USD 500 (kinda cheap in US, right ? but in most Asian countries that mean a "lot" of money

)

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 2:39 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
<big snip>
@Lazarus: So, do you think anyone could have any real use for a fake diploma?

Waverly answered part of the question: in the US any respected learning instiution is "accredited." Accredation ensures that each instution maintains a certain minimum ciricculum (sp!?) Anything non-accredited is anyone's guess - they can do anything they want.

Again, in reference to engineering, I could not have even taken the "engineer in training" exam, until and unless I had taken a degree (or, as in my case, gotten to my last few classes in anticipation of graduation this winter) at an accredited university.

You ask if someone could perhaps get into a profession w/o a proper degree and get in some trouble before discivery. I suppose it is possible, though it seems highly unlikely. In any event, it seems to me that such a person need hardly bother with obtaining this scam diploma. As I said: they could simply lie in an interview. I decry these scams, but I see little societal threat in them.

But are there uses for "fake" diplomas? Sure. I suppose in some less "professional" careers, simply showing that you have a degree at some academic institution would get you a foot in the door. Say, management at McDonald's.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 2:51 pm

@Lazarus: Ok, so an accredited uni in the US is the same as a European uni, it's just that here the word "university" is protected.

PS Did you see my last post in the "fluid geometry" thread? I gave a brief description of what it's supposed to be applied to, I could post a more detailed description if needed. I would be extremly grateful if you could post something there before the 6th of May.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 2:56 pm

@CE: Yes, if there is some type of limitation on the actual term "university" in Europe, I imagine they have the same kind of minimum requirements as US accredited insitutions. Truthfully, the term "university" may have the same meaning here in the US, but I don't know that for certain.

RE: fluids, I did see your last post, but thought (from what you said) that you would come back with another post. Ooops! I'll take another look and post something - before 6. May.