Books for Eng. Lit

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Apr 16, 2002 7:32 pm

Watch it, George Orwell wrote in the 1930's and 40's (he fought in the Spanish Civil War - read "Homage to Catalonia").

Getting and reading a pre-1900 book to compare with a more modern one is a bit iffy.

Nah. Compare and contrast. There's great room for both, and for the larger vision of contrasting a single society on either side of a small temporal but enormous philosophical divide.

Now, if you want to get really creative in your comparative work, try comparing that epic of cruel humor and wonderful realism, Don Quixote, with Lewis Carroll's gently sentimentalized White Knight in Alice Through the Looking Glass, which was based on how the author "saw" the original.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:18 pm

Re: Re: Books for Eng. Lit

Nice assignment @Frogus, do you enjoy literature?

Originally posted by Baldursgate Fan
Whichever books you choose, it will be extremely advantageous to pick on themes that you like/ are interested/comfortable in, eg. politics, slavery, social systems to name a few. I initially wanted to mention Ulysses, but it's way too difficult to make any sane comparison with any classic.

I agree with BG Fan that it would be good to pick a theme that you are interested in, that will make the task much more enjoyable, unless you like me, have an interest in literature per se. I know many people find Joyce's Ulysses difficult to read, and I'm of course biased by my love for this masterpiece, but I would actually suggest comparing Ulysses to either Homero's Ulysses, Virgil's Aenid or Hamlet. There are many interesting parallells, especially to the Aenid. It requires a lot of reading and deep analysis, I know you can do it, but if you don't enjoy literature as a subject, here are some less demanding suggestions:

Umberto Eco - The island of the day before
Robinson Crouse

Eco, my favorite contemporary authoer who you with your interest in philosophy should love (he's a professor in semiotics)

Eco's novel is about an Italian nobleman in the 17th century who gets stranded at a desert island as the sole survivor of a shipwreck. On a deeper level, the novel also investigates the relationship between the author and the reader, so if you want a more advanced task, the book can be compared to any pre 1900 novel that deals with this, for instance

Romeo & Juliet
Yokio Mishima: The sound of waves

If you're into romatic stuff

Mishima is a fabulous writer, a great stylist and he often examines conflicts between people, cultures or times.

Dostoyevsky: Crime and punishment
Sartre: Nausea

About human decay, both contain interesting philosophical issues. Needs no further presentation.

Flaubert: Madame Bovary
Marilyn French: The women's room

Looking at change in woman's role, two different women in two different times share common problems and choose different solutions.

Christopher Marlowe: Dr Faustus
Goethe: Faust

A bit obvious, an easy task however and good works - personally I prefer Marlow's version.

Another interesting comparison, perhaps even more demanding than Ulysses/Aenid though, would be Spenser's Faerie Qveen and Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

If you tell me what kind of themes you are interested in, I could post more suggestions - literature is actually one of my (too many) big interests.

posted by Gaxx
On a related topic, can anyone refer me to a good first-person book? I need one for english.

Do you want a short book? Maxim Gorky's "My childhood" is excellent and a prime example of Russian realism.
Another short novel: Vadim Nabolov: Lolita
A little longer: Charlotte Bronte: Jane Eyre

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:38 pm

Re: Re: Re: Books for Eng. Lit

Originally posted by C Elegans
Nice assignment oyable@Frogus, do you enjoy literature? I

Do you want a short book? Maxim Gorky's "My childhood" is excellent and a prime example of Russian realism.
Another short nover: Vadim Nabolov: Lolita

If you want to open your comparisons up to another level of artistic work, consider add to the pot both the filmed version of Lolita (with James Mason and Peter Sellers) and My Childhood, directed by Mark Donskoi in 1938, and recently re-released by NYFA with English subtitles in an excellent print.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:11 am

Fable, no offence intended, but do I have to be 100% lucid with everything I say here? You don't seem to nitpick half as much with the posts of others. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough but I don't have the time to write an essay-like reply in every post.

To ellucidate, I was refering to the suggestion that people compare George Orwell with a modern author. Frogus' original post asked for a pre-1900 and a post-1900 author. How, then, can George Orwell be compared with a work by a more modern author, since Orwell wrote in this century? Have I made a mistake? Did I get this right?

In my opinion, I then went on to state that this could be a difficult excerise. Pre-1900 books can be difficult to read. Try reading and comparing Hobbes' "Leviathan" with a modern political work. Or try reading D!ckens full stop. The man can describe walking across the room in more than 10 pages.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:23 am

How about comparing and contrasting H.G. Wells's War of the Worlds (1898) and Ray Bradbury's The Martian Chronicles (1950) or Robert A. Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land (1961). All three books involve Mars and are seminal works in the science fiction genre, but each has its own tenor and commentary on the state of humanity and our place in the universe.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:53 am

Originally posted by Gruntboy
Fable, no offence intended, but do I have to be 100% lucid with everything I say here? You don't seem to nitpick half as much with the posts of others. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough but I don't have the time to write an essay-like reply in every post.

Er, I'm not the one who chose to complain about somebody else's post. I'm the one whose post is being nitpicked, remember?

To ellucidate, I was refering to the suggestion that people compare George Orwell with a modern author. Frogus' original post asked for a pre-1900 and a post-1900 author. How, then, can George Orwell be compared with a work by a more modern author, since Orwell wrote in this century? Have I made a mistake? Did I get this right?

Orwell's roots are in 19th century Victorian/Edwardian culture, and this has been pretty throughly documented in more recent biographies that cover his life and works. His parables deal with contemporary events, but frequently based upon cultural observations made and reacted against during his youth in the waning years of the British Empire and the Raj, which he hated. He saw 1984 in the attitudes of Edwardian England. By contrast, Huxley's Brave New World is an attempt to understand what a completely stable government would be like after the horrifically unstable events of WWI, and just as Hitler's election and annexation of neighboring lands were leading to WWII. Orwell reacted to his youth, throughout his Socialist life. Huxley reacted to contemporary events in the 20th century. I know this is an awful simplification, but it does explain what I consider major Janus-like facets in this pair of works that make them fertile ground for comparison across a pair of centuries.

Don't get so bent out of shape because I post something you don't like, @Grunt. I'm entitled to my opinion, and though you may disagree with 'em, I usually have some reason, however small, for their existence.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:23 am

Originally posted by fable
Don't get so bent out of shape because I post something you don't like, @Grunt. I'm entitled to my opinion, and though you may disagree with 'em, I usually have some reason, however small, for their existence.

Moi? Bent out of shape?

Fable, I am the most balanced person I know. I have a chip on *both* shoulders.

Remember, we all have opinions. I never questioned yours.

I didn't even ask about Orwell's writing style, just continuing to point out that he is not (and could never have been) published before 1900. That would kinda put a dent in Frogus' work (the original question) if he only answered half the question.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:38 am

Originally posted by fable
but it does explain what I consider major Janus-like facets in this pair of works that make them fertile ground for comparison across a pair of centuries.

But when Frogus' assignment is to compare a novel written before 1900 with one written iafter 1900, it's irrelevant what the authors' roots are.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:51 am

I didn't even ask about Orwell's writing style, just continuing to point out that he is not (and could never have been) published before 1900. That would kinda put a dent in Frogus' work (the original question) if he only answered half the question.

But when Frogus' assignment is to compare a novel written before 1900 with one written iafter 1900, it's irrelevant what the authors' roots are.

Details!

Okay, I missed that part of Frogus' assignment. Pah. You're both beginning to remind me of my wife.

To fit Frogus' conditions, then, he'd have to compare 1984 or Brave New World to something like Samuel Butler's Erewhon. Now, that's from the 1870s, so that should fit.

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 11:10 am

I'm out of my league.

<--- Humbly bows out.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:29 pm

@Obsidian...you spammer!

thank you all for your help....anyway, to clarify, the literature in question really must be English, meaning that Dostoevsky, Homer and Virgil are out (and Gorsky if he writes in Russian)...

. And I'm not reading Ullyses anyway, fascinating or not

.

@CM. Literature is not one of my big interests, although as a school subject I am good at it. I won't pursue it to A-Level though, I'll go for Eng. Lang instead....

@HLD I aint gonna do sci-fi...

@fable LOL, almost every one of your suggestions are been in my Recommended Reading List given to me by the school...

I am most drawn to 1984/Erehwon. I'll do that if nothing incredible comes up tonight, cos I've got to have decided by tommorow, so thankyou fable!

.

my only other idea is Alice In Wonderland. I am fascinated with this book but cannot think of a suitable twentieth century equivalent (or alternative)...any ideas?

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:45 pm

thank you all for your help....anyway, to clarify, the literature in question really must be English, meaning that Dostoevsky, Homer and Virgil are out (and Gorsky if he writes in Russian).... And I'm not reading Ullyses anyway, fascinating or not.

Gorky wrote only in Russian, but there is a relatively cheap Penguin paperback of My Childhood in English translation by Wilks, who usually does a good job. If you want to check it out, you can actually read a few pages up on Amazon, at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/st ... eader-link

Baldursgate Fan · Post by **Baldursgate Fan** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 1:05 pm

Originally posted by frogus
my only other idea is Alice In Wonderland. I am fascinated with this book but cannot think of a suitable twentieth century equivalent (or alternative)...any ideas?

What about The Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson Burnett?

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 1:59 pm

my only other idea is Alice In Wonderland. I am fascinated with this book but cannot think of a suitable twentieth century equivalent (or alternative)...any ideas?

One possibility is The Man Who Was Thursday, by GK Chesterton. Like Alice, it is presented as a dream, although Chesterton catches well the shift of plot and obsessive detail of dreams, while Carroll has fun playing around with dream chop-logic. Both of course also refer to larger matters, but Carroll doesn't boldface his heavier stuff, while Chesterton can be a bit heavy-handed at times. Well worth the read.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:26 pm

Stop Press...athourative sources have told me to do Bonfire of the Vanities along with The Way We Live Now. So I'll probably do that, with BFotV being the only (AFAIK) Wolfe which I haven't read...and @BG-Fan, I like Alice In Wonderland for reasons other than it being about a girl in a garden

. @Fable, have never heard of Chesterton...what's he all about?

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 3:15 pm

Chesterton was a writer predominantly of mysteries (the Father Brown tales) and fantasy, during the early part of the 20th century. I'd say the TMWWT is probably the best thing he ever wrote, and it's pretty damn good. He grew increasingly bitter and close-minded with age, and his last novel is a disgusting piece of Edwardian bigotry that uses just about every stereotype he can think of drawn from non-Brits.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Apr 19, 2002 4:13 am

Originally posted by fable
You're both beginning to remind me of my wife.

You mean we don't suck anymore?

Is fable Mr Gorski?

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Apr 19, 2002 6:53 am

Originally posted by Gruntboy
You mean we don't suck anymore? Is fable Mr Gorski?

For you, I might make an exception.

And this morning I felt more like Herodotus' corpse. It's spring, here, and I loathe allergies.

For something completely different, consider a comparison of one of the genre of patriotic BS novels that were so popular during the 19th century, in Britain--Arthur Conan Doyle's The Adventures of Gerard is one of the more subtle examples, and I'm sure you could easily find a lot worse by speaking with a good librarian. I would suggest comparing it with one of George MacDonald Fraser's excellent Flashman series, which deliberately set out to mock just the former type of novel. Fraser was a fine British historian of the 20th century who knew just how empty were those patriotic novels intended for impressionable 19th century British schoolboys of the "right class," so his Flashman series has as its hero a lecherous idiot whose stupidity and desires continuously place him in peril in 19th century wars, and who escapes in large part because he's lucky.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Apr 19, 2002 6:59 am

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Fri Apr 19, 2002 9:33 am

To compare to Alice:

The Tooth Fairy by Graham Joyce
Winner of the 1996 British Fantasy Award. from a Review by Fiona Webster: The disquietude in Graham Joyce's coming-of-age tale is that of having too much power as a child--the kind of power that turns your slightest wishes into mayhem. This power is granted to the rather ordinary and fearful member (neither the smartest nor the strongest) of a trio of friends growing up in small-town England by his stinky and enigmatic night visitor, the Tooth Fairy. The charm of this British Fantasy Award-winning novel is in his subtle and unsentimental portrait of a supernaturally benighted childhood. As Ellen Datlow writes in Omni, "Joyce immediately hooks his readers from the very first page with a small sharp shock and holds the reader with engaging characters and an air of menace. This tooth fairy is ... mischievous and destructive, representing our own worst aspects."

Graham Joyce is a really wonderful writer, one of my faves. You can visit his website at http://www.grahamjoyce.net