Raising Children: Discipline or Not ?

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 3:02 am

In the "Pets vs. Children" thread Aragorn has made an interresting point:

Originally posted by Aragorn Returns
i completely disagree with beating etc. to chilren. i also have some thoughts on discipline but that's not what this thread is about, so i'm not going to spam it. I'd just like to make the same point i did earlier about animals, i said that all animals are different. I'd like to say that all children/infants are different, different forms of discipline are better for different children, that's one reason why very rarely can you actually get help from one of those child discpline/raising books.

Furthermore - since our Weasel has a heir/heiress in the coming I thought we could talk a little about the ins and outs of raising children....and maybe I could wheedle something useful for raising MY little brats out of you guys and gals...

So what are your thoughts on discipline and children ?

No worries,

Beldin

CM · Post by CM » Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:31 am

Hitting children no never nada bad thing.
My parents have never hit me or my sister - though it is common is Pakistan, and we turned out very well.
I don't think hitting a child has any positive affect on a child.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:37 am

I was never hit as a child, and I'm the nicest person I know.

I can imagine though that hitting children is not going to get any support from the other SYMers either, but I bet noone has a problem with treating adults cruelly for discipline...

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:40 am

Originally posted by CM
Hitting children no never nada bad thing.
My parents have never hit me or my sister - though it is common is Pakistan, and we turned out very well.
I don't think hitting a child has any positive affect on a child.

Me three.

There is also another side of this. Children are practically without legal rights anyway, it is very difficult for an abused child to dare take action against its own parents. If hitting children is legal it becomes even more difficult for the child or others to do something about abuse.

I think it was a thread about this here at SYM awhile ago, perhaps one should check it out...

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:54 am

I have never hit my children, nor could I envisage a situation where I might ever feel the need. Physically attacking a child achieves nothing but bruises. Reasoning with a child achieves a great deal more.

Discipline and punishment are two completely different issues. Discipline is vital for a child...being shown the boundaries of acceptable behaviour, and helped to stay inside these guidelines. All children are different, and grades of punishment should also take their age into consideration - and what we can reasonably expect of that particular child. Some will respond to discipline by being incentivised, others may regularly cross the lines and need addressing.

When I have reason to punish my children, there are various methods I find effective. My daughter hates being sent to her room or being banned from watching TV, my son hates being grounded, or having his games consoles confiscated

I have my children take responsibility for their own actions...they know the rules, and therefore they understand that if they stray, then they are accepting the consequences of their actions....

CM · Post by CM » Fri Apr 05, 2002 7:00 am

Well said Ysh.
That i agree with.
You have to show them that what they have done is wrong and that they need to be aware of the consequences of breaking the rules.
But hitting them will not help them in anyway.

Dottie said it best, i doubt there would be anybody here who would agree with hitting their child or children.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 7:11 am

I agree with Dottie too. I believe it is already illegal to physically punish your child in Sweden (well done Sweden!) It is now illegal in the UK to hit a child under the age of three. What confounds me is why someone would have reason to, or even want to hit a baby. Also, there is a loose definition, in the UK at least, that reasons striking your child on the back of the legs, say, with an open hand it not considered abuse. Hitting your child with a closed fist, any object, or about the face is considered physical abuse...

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 8:25 am

Yes, definitely. I think it's not only appropriate for parents to discipline their children, it's their responsibility to do so. Thankfully, American law allows parents to administer corporal punishment to their children within reasonable limits. Our Supreme Court justices recognize that there is a big difference between physical abuse and physical discipline (one is done out of anger, the other is done out of love) and that the state has absolutely no business interfering with how parents decide to raise their children unless this line is crossed, silly utopian UN declarations notwithstanding.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:50 am

Originally posted by Yshania

Discipline and punishment are two completely different issues. Discipline is vital for a child...being shown the boundaries of acceptable behaviour, and helped to stay inside these guidelines. All children are different, and grades of punishment should also take their age into consideration -

When I was growing up..it was the"wide belt" or in school..the 'board".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

My ten year old..

Bad grades in school, Not saying Yes Sir ect. ect.. : No TV or Music for a week.

Now I do have rules that will call for the "hand".

Any thing that puts her in danger and she has been told not to do and she then tries..will get her this.

Not looking both ways before crossing the road. ("Hand")
Lying. ("Hand")

Now for things she hasn't tried yet...but will get her the "hand"

Stealing, hitting other people with objects and back talking.

(Disclaimer: It might be wrong to use the "Hand", but this was how I was raised and till this moment..I have never killed anyone or ect ,ect.. So I believe I was raised decent. I see it as my duty (call it what you want) to raise her to be decent as well.)

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 7:48 pm

Originally posted by Yshania
I have never hit my children, nor could I envisage a situation where I might ever feel the need. Physically attacking a child achieves nothing but bruises. Reasoning with a child achieves a great deal more.

Discipline and punishment are two completely different issues. Discipline is vital for a child...being shown the boundaries of acceptable behaviour, and helped to stay inside these guidelines. All children are different, and grades of punishment should also take their age into consideration - and what we can reasonably expect of that particular child. Some will respond to discipline by being incentivised, others may regularly cross the lines and need addressing.

When I have reason to punish my children, there are various methods I find effective. My daughter hates being sent to her room or being banned from watching TV, my son hates being grounded, or having his games consoles confiscated I have my children take responsibility for their own actions...they know the rules, and therefore they understand that if they stray, then they are accepting the consequences of their actions....

I think I agree with you, but I think I may also agree with Weasel. One thing, though, is to keep in mind that, for some kids, no punishment is effective, even if they understand why they're being punished(beyond "I got caught.").

I've often had a knack(sp?) for getting out of trouble, often by doing things to make my 'rents laugh, getting rid of their anger. When I was 2- to 3-years-old, it included things like putting a bowl(the thing from the deal my 'rents used to potty train me) on my head and running around. Needless to say, as I got older, I found more constructive methods. When I got in enough trouble that my dad decided to spank me, I'd run. By the time he caught me, he'd be worn out and wouldn't spank me as many times as he had originally intended. Then my 'rents started giving my a choice of which punishment. It'd be like "spanking or going to my room for 3 hours." They expected me to pick the one I would dislike the least and so then they would punish me with the other one(assuming it would be a better punishment). I always picked the one I didn't want(the spanking) and thus would get sent to my room for 3 hours where I would sit and read. Since I love to read, that wasn't punishment for me. Then they started doing things like taking my video games away for a week or two. During this time when I was banned from video games, one of them would occasionally ask me "Wanna play such-and-such?" and I'd have to remind them that I was banned from video games. This impressed them. So, they made an amendment so that I could play video games if one of them asked if I wanted to play, but it had to be their idea to play. They eventually stopped doing that punishment altogether because they basically were punishing themselves as well.

Now, my 'rents don't really punish me at all. When they try, I somehow manage to get out of it.

However, despite all this lack of successful punishment, they did give me a strong sense of what's fair and what's unfair, as well as what's right and what's wrong, though I don't agree with them on everything about what's right or wrong. And they've almost always been there for me.

IMO, the most important things are to teach what's right and wrong(not necessarily through punishment) and to be there for your kids when they need you, showing them that you do love them.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:12 pm

I agree with CM, Dottie and Ysh, I think hitting a child is totally unnecessary. Parents can achive the same or better results by reasoning and when necessary, other forms of punishment.

Speaking in terms of learning psychology, consequences of an act can be roughly divided into two parts, positive and negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement are consequences that increases the frequency of a certain behaviour, let's say homework. If the child gets attention, encouragement (social rewards), gifts (material rewards) etc, the child will be more inclined to do homework. If the child gets scorn, frowns (social punishment), gets things they like removed (materal punishment) for doing homework, the kid will soon stop doing homework. Kids are extremely sensitive to parental social positive reinforcement, so rewarding good behaviour goes a long way.
However, it's of course unrealistic to raise a child with only positive reinforcement, so some negative reinforcement to decrease unwanted behaviour will always be necessary. The options are many, and one of the most effective alternatives is social punishment such as ignoring the child or show dislike and anger towards the act. When this is not applicable, material punishment can be used, and, as a last resort, physical limitations like being grounded.

I wasn't hit as a child, none of friends were, and none of my friends with children ever hit their kids. Ysh is right that it is illegal in Sweden, and I support that 100%.

Originally posted by Yshania
Discipline and punishment are two completely different issues. Discipline is vital for a child...being shown the boundaries of acceptable behaviour, and helped to stay inside these guidelines. All children are different, and grades of punishment should also take their age into consideration - and what we can reasonably expect of that particular child. Some will respond to discipline by being incentivised, others may regularly cross the lines and need addressing.

I absolutely agree, there is no reason to confuse discipline with physical punishment. I think of my primary school, the discipline was military, but our teachers didn't even raise their voice more than once a year or so

The most severe punishment that was delivered was to be sent out in the corridor, usually for 4-5 minutes. If we were chatting in class, the teacher only gave us a glance, and we immediatly became silent.

posted by SS
IMO, the most important things are to teach what's right and wrong(not necessarily through punishment) and to be there for your kids when they need you, showing them that you do love them.

This I totally agree with. Showing love, understanding, respect and acceptance of the child as he or she is, are fundaments of good parenthood as well as teaching how the world works and what is accetable and not accetable. If or when parents punish their children, it's also very important to show that it's the specific act that is punished, and that you love the child regardless of this, it's the act you dislike.

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:16 am

I find it strange that MOST people (not only here on SYM) equal DISCIPLINE and BEATING. There's a WORLD of difference...

I can't see the connection myself. I completley agree with Ysh - DISCIPLINE is vital for any education - BEATING is definitely NOT...

The only difficulty is finding out the level of discipline needed - I don't want to train soldiers - so I'll have to come up with a reasonable ratio of "discipline" : "being a child" . What are you're suggestions ?

@Weasel: quote: "Any thing that puts her in danger and she has been told not to do and she then tries..will get her this. "

I agree so far. But not further. I've had my share of beatings by my father and I won't do that to my children.

No worries.

Beldin

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:11 am

Originally posted by Beldin

@Weasel: quote: "Any thing that puts her in danger and she has been told not to do and she then tries..will get her this. "

I agree so far. But not further. I've had my share of beatings by my father and I won't do that to my children.

No worries.

Beldin

I guess it depends on the meaning of "beatings". It is a child we are talking about and restraint is called for. I will not "beat down" a child. Anyone who does should be shot. The use of the "hand" should not be used in anger, but as a means to reinforce something (IMHO) that is very important.

My little girl is now 10, it's been 3 years since the hand has been used..(For running out in front of a car without looking, lucky the driver was paying attention and figured she was going to make a dash)...but if she tried right at this moment she would get the hand again. Until she moves out on my house she will be held to the rule, once she moves out...I can only hope she learned not to.

(On another note... I believe some children are born with a strong will (maybe you will understand what I mean) and some parents will do their best to try and break this will...which I believe is wrong. A strong will child has IMHO a better chance to succeed in life than one beaten down with no will.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:21 am

Originally posted by Weasel
(On another note... I believe some children are born with a strong will (maybe you will understand what I mean) and some parents will do their best to try and break this will...which I believe is wrong. A strong will child has IMHO a better chance to succeed in life than one beaten down with no will.

I agree with this completely. I'm one of those strong-willed ones, much to the frustration of my 'rents and teachers.

Because no one ever managed to break my will, I've got the stubbornness to succeed even when I'm told I can't. On the other hand, my strong will is what made most of the punishment from my 'rents and teachers ineffective.

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:37 am

I agree with CE that behavior modification really works, if applied consistently.

The problem with corporal punishment is that the parents are usually using it to vent their emotions rather than as a controlled method of discipline. There is a great danger of combining anger with corporal punishment--that you end up with abuse. If you add a six-pack of beer into that, you have a dangerous situation. I grew up in a very violent family. As a result, all of us have needed therapy, have had drug/alcohol problems, and big issues with authority and the law. I personally see absolutely no benefits from my upbringing. Plus my parents were totally inconsistent--you could do something wrong, and it would either be totally ignored, or you'd find yourself being smacked or worse. It was all mood-dependent. Never knowing what was going to happen taught me only that you could never trust anyone. If it weren't for my last relationship with a man who grew up in a non-violent family, I would never have known it was not normal to vent whatever emotion I was feeling at the time regardless of consequences. (For example, in my early 20's, I thought it was perfectly acceptable to tell someone close to me to "shut up", call him "stupid", etc.) Another thing that really turned me around was working at a mental hospital where behavior mod was used, because beating adults is illegal, and seeing how effective it was. I think that resorting to corporal punishment is not only dangerous but purely lazy on the part of the parents. Behavior modification requires a plan, a lot of thought, and consistent application. A lot of parents I see just want to do whatever pops into their head, and then use a lot of rationalizations later as to why their actions were appropriate.

Robnark · Post by **Robnark** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:48 am

my parent's use of discipline was never physical and very lenient compared to most people i knew, but that served to make any chastisement or punishment much more hard-hitting. i was only once ever 'sent to my room', and that was so upsetting for me that i cleaned up my act immediately. the problem with discipline is that if it is overused - as has happened to some close friends - the only thing that will make an impact is phsical punishment, and eventually violence. i believe it is far better to make discipline - even verbal - something rare, so that it's impact is greater and lasting.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:40 pm

Originally posted by Weasel

(On another note... I believe some children are born with a strong will (maybe you will understand what I mean) and some parents will do their best to try and break this will...which I believe is wrong. A strong will child has IMHO a better chance to succeed in life than one beaten down with no will.

I was blessed with two of them

and I agree with you. An idle parent can easily destroy the fire in their bellies. But why? Better to nurture this, all the time maintaining some kind of balance...so that your child grows up feeling appreciated, listened to, and confident. If this will is broken, the child will grow up lacking self confidence and self belief...on the other hand, if this will is not tempered and directed, they could grow up loud, self righteous and arrogant. There are positive and negative aspects to strong will, needing encouragement in some areas and teaching self control in others.

@voo *hug*

I am sorry to hear this. Many people grow into adults promising themselves they will not parent as their parents did. Some have more reasons than others. I promised myself I would never tell my children 'because I said so' for example, mild by some experiences. I thought I would always be able to give a reason. Sometimes, when I am exhausted and world war three is errupting in my home, those are the first words that jump to mind. It is hard to change what you know...and for many people their only experience of parenthood is their own upbringing. And sometimes a child receiving no disipline or guidance at all, is at as much risk socially and emotionally as a child who is over disciplined, and over punished. We need to set boundaries, and consistency is vital...There are times that we will slip, but as long as they are few and far between, and as long as there is not a major issue at stake, sometimes we can be forgiven, we are human after all

Where there is no consistency, or where there are extremes of discipline, and punishment, those norms and values are adopted. We have only a very short time to impress upon our children before they are out in the big wide world, so to speak, and if we have taken the time necessary, there will be a firm enough foundation set, and a warm loving home and relationship for them to touch base with

Posted by Robnark

i believe it is far better to make discipline - even verbal - something rare, so that it's impact is greater and lasting.

Maybe we are mixing discipline with punishment again

If I may, I will read your statement as referring to punishment. Iagree

Much more effective than a screaming match, is eye contact and a quiet and firmly spoken statement. I once read a quote along the lines of 'bringing up a child by yelling at them is like trying to steer a car by using the horn - and is just as effective'. I agree with this. I am not saying I have not yelled

I have, I admit it...most days just to grab there attention it might take a yell over the din. Once you have their attention, the yelling can stop.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:52 pm

I also have a child who is especially strong-willed.....
Given that I am warm-tempered, stubborn and impatient this can be very difficult for me to deal with...... Thus I frequently absent myself from a situation for a few moments.
However...I have found that the most effective way to handle my son during such moments is to reinforce the connection between consequences and actions.
For example, if he insists he wants to go without his jacket in cold weather, I allow him to do such with the caveat that we are not going back if he finds himself shivering.......

AbysmalNature · Post by **AbysmalNature** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 1:16 pm

My parents were very similar to Voo's, often times I would not even know the reason why I would be punished, I learned to accept that chaos was a part of my life, often times my dad would come home drunk, and for no apparent reason take out his abuse on me, my brother, and my mother. I would agree that discipline is important but physical violence is not, all I learned from that is to that when I grew big enough I would smack back. It did not teach me anything at all except to wait until I was strong enough to exact my vengeance later on when my father was not quite so strong. Fortunately I learned from that lesson, my brother unfortunately did not he still breaks out into fights with my father periodically and now that he has taken to weight lifting often times wins the fights, always I have to mediate the disputes between my psychotic family, but that was not the question, anyway after much therapy and moving away from my family all together I have gotten better, but have never forgotten the pain I endured while under the so called discipline of my parents, if ever I have children(I have not decided on this yet maybe I should just let the line die out) I would never beat my children and I constantly test myself to make sure that in situations where anger is there I would never let it go solely as a way of releasing my frustrations on someone else. However if ever I have children I showed such tendencies I would never stay with them, I would leave still support them, but better separation then the hell I went though.

I am of the opinion that children should be encouraged in everything they want and whenever possible learn themselves why certain things are wrong, and other times I would reason with them, I have always hated the saying"Spare the rod spoil the child", just a excuse for stupid parents to vent their frustrations on their children, reasoning with them sounds much better, I mean there are other forms of punishment that do not involve violence.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 4:46 pm

Releasing Frustrations...

I don't really agree with the releasing frustrations thing. My Grandpa abused my mother when she was a child, as well as my uncle and Grandma. It wasn't a matter of releasing frustration for him; for him it was instability of emotions because he had Diabetes, but no one, not even he, knew it.

On the other hand, both of my 'rents have fierce tempers, and I have quite regularly all of my life pushed them to the extreme points of their tempers. However, neither have abused me. In fact, they've gone so far as breaking TV trays, etc to release their anger rather than direct it at me, and God knows I rarely deserved such restraint.