Should CRPG's be more multicultural?

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 4:18 pm

I was looking up stuff about nordic mythology on the net, and ran into a bunch of white supremacist websites! It's some really sick stuff and makes me wish I knew how to hack a website.

Anyway, the big trend among them seems to be pagan religions--esp. Nordic or Celtic. For example, books for sale on one of their shopping sites list: The Gnostic Jung, Myths of the Norsemen, Nordic Gods and Heroes (which I just read), The Secret of the Runes, CG Jung & Herman Hesse, Masks of Odin, --after that you hit the usual books like White Power, The Turner Diaries, Temple of Wotan: Holy Book of the Aryan Tribe (ugh).

This is very disturbing. Made me wonder how many of these jerks are playing BG??? or similar games...

Anyway, it got me to thinking that it would be nice to see mythology of other regions of the world mixed into new CRPG's. I would love to play a game that mixed in Aztec/Mayan mythology or mythology from Africa. CRPG's come from D&D, but is it a hard and fast rule that the world of the Forgotten Realms can only be a Eurocentric one?

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 4:24 pm

Actually there is a more global view in the Realms

Maztica is and Aztec type mythos, Kara Tur is based on various asian mythos and I can't remember what Chult is based on.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Mar 29, 2002 4:25 pm

I would say it depends on the audience you are selling to.
Most of these games are played in the euro-us area, so you have to cater to stuff that would make the majority feel familair and stuff.

I would love to see a more multi-cultural CRPG.
Say a BG2 type set up in ancient Middle East.

Oh yeah the FR is very much like the real world.
You got the chinese and japanese types in the very east.
In Calimshan and stuff you have teh arab world represented.

But i would agree that the more multi-cultural it is, the better it would be.

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 4:32 pm

I didn't know that about the FR--I only know what's in the various games based on it.

Also--aren't there an awful lot of Asian gamers out there?

Middle Eastern stuff would be cool--esp. race of the Djinn. BG uses these as evil chaotic creatures, but from my knowledge, it is more complex--just like the elves or fairies in Celtic mythos. It'd be great to have a game where you could play a Djinn.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Mar 29, 2002 4:36 pm

Well some interesting stuff.
We believe alot in Magic, esp Black magic, and of course there are different types of Jin and other creatures.
It would be very interesting if someone does it, but they would have to do alot of research, as most of this is not documented.
Or they should have a very good imagination.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 7:21 pm

Standalone CPRGs have very slim pickings for non-Celtic mythic elements. Even that Russian one--was it Evil Legends?--just simply used shacks and settlements that could have been Celtic. Gods, what I wouldn't give for a good game that was based on the Slavic mythos (for instance)! This conformity is really annoying, and it seems to derive from younger developers who are simply clueless where other cultures are concerned.

That reminds me of an incident when I was DMing online. I was in charge of building the history of a new province for the players, but I ended up spending a part of my time diplomatically fending off the attempts of newer, younger members of the team who wanted to convert a Dwarven only province with its own rites, culture and attitudes into a standard King-Arthur-and-Late-Rennaisance-French-Castles thing. Some of our folks simply didn't think it was "fantasy" if it didn't have a king and a castle and the influence of modern films in it.

Timekeeper · Post by **Timekeeper** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 9:28 pm

Technically TSR did publish something with a Middle Eastern flair. It was called Al-Qadim, and had a mage kit devoted to harnessing the abilities of djinns.

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 9:50 pm

I think it will come with time rather than being forced. Because eventually, everyone will get bored.
Also, theres the fact that the most well known mythic stories come from central europe. The discussion of Colonization is for a different thread

Heres to hoping some fresh new CRPG comes along that focuses on an entirely new series of mythos and beats the heck out of current games!

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 9:54 pm

Originally posted by Timekeeper
Technically TSR did publish something with a Middle Eastern flair. It was called Al-Qadim, and had a mage kit devoted to harnessing the abilities of djinns.

Just proves my point: same ol' same 'ol, just a new piece of window dressing put up on the room. I remember a game from SSI that applied all the TSR rules of Al-Qadim. It really didn't do more than substitute generalized Arabian skins for the more traditional ones. Content was identical.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Sat Mar 30, 2002 1:16 am

I would really love to see CRPGs based on all kinds of mythology, But i dont like when they try to force a diffrent paradigm into an existing one like FRs supplements. This only leads to large inconsequense in how cultures effect each other since those supplements are usally made by people that seem to have zero imagination.

Originally posted by fable
That reminds me of an incident when I was DMing online. I was in charge of building the history of a new province for the players, but I ended up spending a part of my time diplomatically fending off the attempts of newer, younger members of the team who wanted to convert a Dwarven only province with its own rites, culture and attitudes into a standard King-Arthur-and-Late-Rennaisance-French-Castles thing. Some of our folks simply didn't think it was "fantasy" if it didn't have a king and a castle and the influence of modern films in it.

lol, I had a similar experiance when i tried to introduce dwarfs living in the forest. While I could easily imagine a sturdy dwarf downing trees with his axe and living in huts with turf roof, some said it just wasnt fantasy.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sat Mar 30, 2002 12:18 pm

aahhh @fable..what is Slavic myth all about? and also I'd like to mention that although a kind of aesthetic celtic feel is always the prevalent one in RPGs these days, the actual celtic legendary characters, gods and stories etc are not so big...I think what actually we are all sick of is Tolkeinic RPGs (and of course Tolkein was the one who plundered all the celtic culture in the first place), not celtic ones.
@Vood...India is a big PC games market...
I would love to see more Chinese styled RPGs...that's the really freaky stuff...
as far as mutli-culturalism...TSR have never been great (BTW is it true that D&D is now ownd by Wizards'?)...the imagination has not been there, as anyone who has played in Ravenloft will tell you...and BGII is about as progressive and imaginative as RPGs get these days IMHO...maybe it's because RPGs are basically for the USA, and the white population of European extraction outways the East Asian, Slavic and Arabic population..this all hinges though on the idea that maybe your average RPG gamer feels he cannot roleplay someone of a different race...it's a horrible thought, but who knows...

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 30, 2002 4:26 pm

Originally posted by frogus
aahhh @fable..what is Slavic myth all about?

What do you want to know about it? It started as a sort of animist faith, that eventually evolved into a dual God/Goddess theology with Rodt and Rozhenitsa. They gave newborn infants their souls and their fates. Similar dualities exist throughout Slavic religious thought: the year was ruled by the God brothers, Bialybog ("white god") and Czernabog ('black god"). The day was shaped by the spirits of midnight, the Polunocnitsa, and the spirits of noon, the Poludnitsa.

The four elements were extremely important, with Fire and Water representing a horizontal duality of vitality, while sky and earth provided the vertical plane. Groups of spirits or individual gods ruled bodies of water. Fire was personified by the god Svarozhich, and it was a crime to spit in one. One of the most respected dieites was Mati Syra Zemlja, Mother Moist Earth, obviously an agricultural deity of fertility. (When the Christians took over, the faithful transfered her worship to the Marian cult, which is strong in Eastern Orthodoxy.) She was considered sacred, as was the earth; oaths were sworn while holding a handful of earth, and in some weddings, a small amount of earth was placed upon the head of both the bridegroom and bride.

The more immediate gods and spirits were a pretty remarkable bunch. For example, Baba Yaga ("Grandmother Boney Shanks") was a figure who would help or hinder, a sly witch or hag who lived in a hut that sat atop twelve foot high chicken's legs. She traveled at great speed through the enormous Ukrainian forests at night, or hopped into an enormous mortar and brushed the air along both sides with her broom as she sped along through the sky.

Perun was the God of Thunder, a large man with a copper red beard who wrote in a chariot pulled by a he-goat. He held an axe that he'd hurl at evildoers, and it would always return to his hand. The lightning bolts he threw also returned to his hand, interestingly enough, though they took seven years to do so as they traveled through the earth. The oak tree was sacred to Perun. He arch-enemy was Zaltys, the serpent who curled about the base of the world tree. His temples were all octagonal, and set on high land.

Triglav was a deity of prophecy and knowledge, bearing three faces; one each for sky, earth, and underworld. He was often showed blindfolded, to show that the evils of the world were of little inconsequence to the level of activity he engaged in.

The Zorya were the three daughters of Dazhdbog, the Sun God: dawn, dusk, and midnight. They guarded the fierce god hound chained to the constellation of Ursa Major. It was believed that if the hound ever broke free, the world would be destroyed. Zorya Utrenyaya would open the gates of her father's Eastern palace every morning so that he might ride across the sky; Zorya Vechemyaya would close the Eastern and Western gates after his ride was completed.

Among lesser spirits, the Domovoi were popular. They were male house spirits who usually lived in quiet areas--behind the stove, up in the attic, or in the stables. They were responsible for household tranquility and prosperity. They had to be fed every night; if neglected, they would leave, plunging the household into poverty and neglect. When new houses were built, a piece of salted white bread on clean linen was placed before the stove to attract the Domovoi. When somebody moved, they'd take coals from their old stove, and call for the Domovoi to accompany them.

Kikimora was a female house spirit, as tall as a tall room and as narrow as a thimble. She'd come out at night to spin and make sure the house remained in good shape until dawn; but woe betide the household mistress who was lazy, and allowed things to get out of hand...! Then she would whistle through the house, wake up the children, move things around, and wreck havoc all night long. She had also the habit of appearing while spinning to those who were about to die.

That's a few of the main characters. There's plenty more, all sorts of curious legends and such; but that gives a brief flavor. Hope it helps.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:48 am

Gosh..aren't you knowledgeable!

I've got a creepy book about Baba Yaga, which is creepier still because it was one of the few things recovered from my Primary School after it was burnt down, so it still smells of smoke and fire...I never realised where it was from though...I seem to remeber thinking it was Finnish...

Irish mythology has been drained dry of RPG concepts...Cuchuallain and his magic spear GaeBolga and magic sword Caladbolg, Balor of the Evil Eye, who could kill whatever he looked upon, Banshees, Changelings, Uaitne who can play songs on the harp which bring about magical sleep, ageing or death, Fir-bolgs, Ochain the magic shield which shouts when danger is near by and Fear Caille the wooden man have all been lifted stright out of Irish Myth and into the fantasy genre...Intersetingly enough Crom Faeyr translates (with a few spelling changes) to something like 'Man Bender'...or it could be 'Stooping Man'...or they could have just made up faeyr and got the 'crom' from Crom Cruach, the evil spirit who took the shape of a dragon or a shadow and did bargains for people's souls and lives...

so there's what I know about the roots of RPGs...although I suppose many of the heroes and gods will be standard templates of which every culture has a version...

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 12:23 pm

I agree with Voodoo that the CRPG:s I have seen have been far too focused on Eurpean, especially celtic and germanic/nordic mythology. I would absolutely love to see games with more influences from the IMO often much richer African or Asian mythologies. Perhaps all the Indian programmers could give the game manufacturers some suggestions?