Another Courageous Step Forward in US Foreign Policy

[McBane]

While international criticism pours in over Israel's new offensive today, the United States once again displays it's unbiased judgement. I heard Colin Powell on the radio this afternoon, criticize Arafat for the latest events.

Are you kidding me??? I usually don't get involved in these discussions, but I am soo tired of Bush's stance. It's embarrassing. Can the current administration once, just once, act as if there are 2 sides?

I do like conspiracies, so here we go.....Does Bush want this to escalate to the point that another country...namely Iraq..attacks Israel? The US would certainly use it as justification to invade Iraq, and Dubya can go finish the job his daddy didn't do.

Any opinions?

[CM]

Everybody knows my views on the issue, being one of 3 muslims (from what i know) on the forum.
I will not comment on the whole issue except for saying 1 thing.
You guys just shot yourselves in the foot and gave Al-Qaeda is popularity boost.
Now Al-Qaeda will be seen as the only thing that will go toe to toe with the US and it has the capabilities of doing so.
People voted before that the US was the most unsafe place to live now.
I can only feel that it is going to get a whole lot worse.
This will only get much much worse.

[Xandax]

Originally posted by CM
<snip>
You guys just shot yourselves in the foot and gave Al-Qaeda is popularity boost.
<snip>

Well last time I checked - we guys hadn't done anything - but the US goverment did something

And btw this is really a sencitive subject - and as we all know there is no easy way to this problem.

I've said it before - and I'll say it again. I doubt peace will happen in the middleeast for a long long time untill there is some clear international will to actually step in and seperate the parties in question.

I can understand both sides of this story.
The palisitians view of the "oppressors"(sp?) and the Isrealic view of the "terrorists".
IMO they are both right in their views, which makes it so hard for them to come together.

[CM]

The You guys comment was directed towards the american govt.
Not to any of the people here Xan.
It wasn't meant like that at all.

I am going to do something unheard of.
I am going to quote Bunny Bravo!
"The stories are based on your perceptions and thus all three are right"
In this case both the Palestinians and Israelis have cases.
It just depends which side you lean more towards.

[Xandax]

Originally posted by CM
<snip>
I am going to do something unheard of.
I am going to quote Bunny Bravo!
"The stories are based on your perceptions and thus all three are right"
In this case both the Palestinians and Israelis have cases.
It just depends which side you lean more towards.

That was why I used the "Imo" - I know other people have other views

"It is all in the eye of the beholder"
(Boy that *really* has to hurt)

[HighLordDave]

We would acknowledge the Palestinean point of view if Arabs voted in large numbers in the United States. Beginning in 1948, when the United States recognised the modern state of Israel, our entire policy in the Middle East has had two prongs: cheap oil and pandering to the the substantial (and powerful) Jewish bloc vote. Like other large ethnic and special interest groups (ie-the Irish, the NRA, labour unions, etc.), Jews in the United States merit a certain amount of attention from elected officials because they tend to vote as a cohesive group. Coupled with the general tendency of Jews to be more affluent and professional than other groups, it means that as a bloc, they have more influence (read: money) and can get their agenda advanced ahead of others.

After 11 September, there was a largely circulated statistic that there were more Muslims in the United States than Episcopals. While this may be true, what was not also stated is that most of those Muslims aren't Arabs; they're blacks who turned to Islam after feeling that the AME and black Baptist denominations failed to achieve the civil rights goals they wanted in the 60s and 70s. Consequently, the Muslim vote in the US consists of two main groups: disenfranchised blacks and Arabs (who are further splintered among the various Arab ethnic groups). Until Arabs make up a large voting bloc, and show that they are willing to flex their collective muscle, the Arab agenda will always take a back-burner to our other policies in the Middle East.

I think there's enough blame to go around for the current situation in the West Bank. Part of it certainly belongs to Yassar Arafat and his tacit approval of terror tactics and the fact that he turned down a good deal because 90% of what he wanted wasn't good enough. Part of it also belongs to the Israelis who have taken a hardline approach and have antagonised the Palestineans into fighting violence with more violence. And lastly, part of the blame rest squarely on Dubya for reversing the course the Clinton administration took; sure it was meddling in someone else's business, but last I checked both sides wanted someone, anyone, to broker a deal and Bill stepped up to bat. You'll also notice that while Clinton was Prez, he leaned on both sides and the body count wasn't anywhere near what it has become in the last few weeks.

I'm not sure what the current administration's plan is with Israel; I don't think it's a ploy to lure Saddam Hussein into attacking Jerusalem again. He's a smart cookie and looks out for himself first, and his other Arab brothers second. He also knows that we'll kick his ass again and probably won't stop short of Baghdad twice.

[CM]

Just to keep the discussion going what are your views Xan?
You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

I am one of the few muslims that i have met, that believes that the Jews have as much right to the land as the Palestinians do to the land.
No matter what happened in the past.
I believe that the recent peace offer by the Arab league is a good plan.
The 1967 borders give both part of the land.
Jersuluem is given an international status.
Neither race/religion/country can thus claim it as the capital.
Solving a major headache.

[CM]

What is/are Episcopals???

[frogus]

Are you kidding me??? I usually don't get involved in these discussions, but I am soo tired of Bush's stance. It's embarrassing. Can the current administration once, just once, act as if there are 2 sides?

No...exactly the same Jewish presence which forced the USA into siding with the Zionists to start with is more powerful than ever, and now that the USA's moral weakness has caught up with it, it are in even less of a position to turn it around.

You guys just shot yourselves in the foot and gave Al-Qaeda is popularity boost.

I don't think Al-Qaeda are an issue anymore. The climate in Pakistan is stable enough to eliminate that danger I think...

IMO they are both right in their views, which makes it so hard for them to come together.

The situation in Israel is tragic. Because of family connections to the N.Ireland 'issue', I have seen what can happen when people's principles get in the way of their morality and good judgemtn and care for other people...what is worse is that the 'principles' which were at work in both Ireland and Israel have long since desolved and left just blind hatred and vengefullness...However, I believe that the Israelites are not right in their views..or at least, the only views they really have anymore are views to revenge and settling of old grudges. the Zionists however are wrong in their views, and this whole ugly mess is because the USA were too cowardly to admit it.

EDIT-ahh HLD said what I was gonna while I was writing this post.

[Xandax]

Originally posted by CM
Just to keep the discussion going what are your views Xan?
You don't have to answer if you don't want to.
<snip>

Stated in my first post.
If you ask whom I belive should make the first move, I can't say for sure, because I know no one will want to (neither the "terrorists" nor the "oppressors".

[HighLordDave]

Originally posted by CM
What is/are Episcopals???

Episcopals are a protestant Christian denomination similar to Calvinists, Lutherans and Presbyterians.

[CM]

Originally posted by frogus
I don't think Al-Qaeda are an issue anymore. The climate in Pakistan is stable enough to eliminate that danger I think...

Frogus, i would disagree there.
In Islam suicide is a major sin.
The act will send you to hell no questions asked.
Yet palestinians and many others are willing to kill themselves and others.
That is frightening to me, because these bombers are usually extremely religious people.
Yet they easily perform a sin to kill Americans or Israelis.
And more people are flocking to these organizations.
The recent months is an example.
More people are willing to kill themselves to hurt the "enemy".

Al-Qaeda comes in to play because, it so far is the only "organization" that has attacked the US on US soil.
It gives them an image of standing up for the muslim people, when they are making it far worse.
When the US remains inactive and in some eyes, agrees with the acts within Israel, it makes the people support groups like Al-Qaeda out of sheer frustration and because they have no where else to turn kids join these organizations.
Al-Qaeda is very much an issue, as it is seen among the muslim people the only "organization" that is willing to stand up to the US.
Something their dictatorial govts do not do.

And Pakistan - completely different issue, but if you want to discuss what is happening in Pakistan, just ask any questions here or via PM.

[CM]

Originally posted by HighLordDave


Episcopals are a protestant Christian denomination similar to Calvinists, Lutherans and Presbyterians.

Ok thanks, but i am confused at the comparision to the muslim minority in the US.
Are Episcopals a large or small group?

[HighLordDave]

Episcopals are not a huge group, but they are a fairly large group; around 6-7 million. The last number I heard on Muslims in America was in the 7-8 million range. According to this website I found, the estimated Jewish population in the US is 5.8 million. What separates the Jews from other religious and ethnic groups is that they weild a substantial amount of influence because of their bloc voting and economic power.

[CM]

Thanks HLD!!

[frogus]

Al-Qaeda comes in to play because, it so far is the only "organization" that has attacked the US on US soil.

I guess you're right...I suppose it's because (even in the cold war) it has alsways been that people have been twisting around every possible situation to avoid at all cost a theoretical nuclear war, and one has to wonder, if, during the height of the cold war say, if Reagan had just stopped trying to avoid nuclear war, it would never have happened anyway...now it seems as if nuclear war can only be a theoretical..a scary story to keep up urgency..but maybe the attack on the WTC is an illustration that it would just snap if the USA let it's guard down...still, as far as I know the Al-Qaeda will not have nuclear cpability unless something drastic happens as regards Israel and Palestine...and as long as it keeps in this 1984-esque state of perpetual war, the balance is maintained...that's how the US see it anyway I think...

[CM]

I agree with everything you say, but I still have this nagging feeling that the worse is yet to come.
I do hope i am wrong, but the way things are going, Al-Qaeda is going to get a lot more support from now on.
And this is bad thing for the world including muslims.

[fable]

Originally posted by HighLordDave


Episcopals are a protestant Christian denomination similar to Calvinists, Lutherans and Presbyterians.

I can just see the current Archbishop of Cantebury's eyes bug out at a description which sets him at a table next to John Calvin and John Knox. (I know, the definition served its purpose.)

[VoodooDali]

Personally, I'm sick of this whole mess, and what I would do is immediately withdraw US financial aid to Israel until they do what we say. We support them to the tune of 6 billion dollars per year. They can at least cooperate with our efforts in the peace process, and act like they care about 9/11 and how that affected us. If they want to pursue their current insanity, then fine, no money. I can think of a lot of other things that money could be better spent on (like health insurance for the uninsured workers of the USA like myself.)

[frogus]

But the 'we' in question is a whole bunch of powerful Jews who are not gonna carry on voting for (and supporting the economy of) a man who gives priority to the, dare I say it, Muslims over the people trying to steal their land...