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should the SAT be abolished

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Nippy
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Post by Nippy »

Originally posted by C Elegans
@Nippy: Let's say I want to study medicine or law at Oxford university, what would I have to do then?

And in both situation, what do I do if I have straight A's and I'm very talented, but I don't have any money?
To study at you need to be of a certain 'calibre' as they put it, that basically means you need to have grades and talent and a glowing reference.

If you have these, then generally you need a lot of money. Terms at these schools cost a hell of a lot of money and generally only those with a 'private' school background get in. The entrance rate of public school students is still ridiculously low. If you have talent and grades they may consider putting you on a scholarship, it all depends on luck...
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C Elegans
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Post by C Elegans »

Thanks Nippy, what a depressing system :( But perhaps it doesn't matter which university you went to, when it comes to getting a good job?

Let's say I want to work at the best university hospitals. Are my chances of getting an internship an later, a good position, in any way depending on what uni I graduated from?

Another question to the Americans: I have heard that you can get a PhD also in natural science and experimental areas without being published in the peer-reviewed press. Is this true? Is this only at "not so good" universities? I also heard that a "professor" doesn't need to have published a lot in the peer-reviewed press either, in many cases it's enough to teach to be called a professor. What about this?
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Post by Robnark »

@CE: as to whether your uni matters in respect to a career, to an annoying degree it can, especially the 'old boy network' where old schoolmates from 'good' universities are able to go into the top jobs using their networks built up at the uni. there's less of it nowadays, but in this country there is still too much elitism at the top.
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Post by Tamerlane »

Originally posted by Robnark
@CE: as to whether your uni matters in respect to a career, to an annoying degree it can, especially the 'old boy network' where old schoolmates from 'good' universities are able to go into the top jobs using their networks built up at the uni. there's less of it nowadays, but in this country there is still too much elitism at the top.
What a disturbing system. You would think we would of passed that age a long time ago. 'old boy network' :rolleyes:
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Post by Georgi »

Originally posted by Nippy
To study at you need to be of a certain 'calibre' as they put it, that basically means you need to have grades and talent and a glowing reference.

If you have these, then generally you need a lot of money. Terms at these schools cost a hell of a lot of money and generally only those with a 'private' school background get in. The entrance rate of public school students is still ridiculously low. If you have talent and grades they may consider putting you on a scholarship, it all depends on luck...
I think you're being a little unfair, here.

If you want to study at Oxford or Cambridge, top grades (usually including A-levels in or related to the subject you're applying for - for example, to study Physics, you need both Maths and Physics A-level; for Medicine you need Biology and probably another science; for Law it would be more flexible, but usually at least one humanities subject) and evidence of worthwhile extra-curricular activities will get you an interview. This is really where the decisions are made for Oxbridge, because on paper there's very little to differentiate the candidates. And this is where private schools do better, because their candidates are far better prepared for interview than those from state schools (I'm not using the term "public school" because it doesn't actually mean that in this country). The interview process has been criticised for its bias towards private school students, and Oxbridge have made effort in recent years to address this. (An additional problem is that pupils at state schools may receive less encouragement to apply to Oxbridge in the first place, whereas at a private school, all students with the necessary grades are probably encouraged to apply.) Oxbridge is making an effort to widen the scope of its intake. But it's difficult to suggest how else they can select their students other than some kind of interviews.

(Edit: I forgot as well, for some subjects - I know maths is one, not sure about others - you have to sit an exam called the STEP paper, which is notoriously (and deliberately), horribly difficult.)

Offers of university places are not made on the basis of how much money a student has. (Although the old boys network may have a little influence.) IIRC the university doesn't receive details of how much money you have. Whatever university you go to, you can get a loan to cover the cost of your education, after the offer of a place is confirmed. The loan is means-tested, so if your family is poor, more money will be available to you. At Oxbridge there are more scholarships and grants available than most other UK universities because they're richer - and it usually depends on which college you apply to, some are richer than others.

If anything has discouraged poorer students from going into higher education, it has to be the introduction of tuition fees several years ago. Students are leaving university with massive debts. The National Union of Students is still holding rallies to protest against tuition fees, with little success. (Last year the students at my university held a particularly ill-planned protest, IMO - they (or at least those who knew it was happening and thought it might made a difference) staged a strike, and didn't go to lectures for a day. I can't see that this would have had any effect on the university at all - all it achieved was to deprive the students who took part of the education they're paying for... :rolleyes: )

Edit: And Robnark is sadly right about the old boys' network being important, although it does depend on career. Oxbridge generally aren't the top universities for less traditional subjects.
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Post by humanflyz »

Wow, now I am lost. I have no idea about the UK education system. Now I am at least a bit informed.
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Post by HighLordDave »

Ivy League schools in the US are very exclusive, but not necessarily because of financial considerations or socio-economic class. As some of our friends suggest, when applying to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, et al, it helps to be a "legacy" applicant (ie-one of your parents or siblings attended the university), but that is not necessarily a guarantee that someone will get in. In addition, being poor is not an automatic disqualifier, although poorer people tend not to excel in academics which usually shuts them out of the admissions process.

I know that in the case of Princeton, they believe that if someone can meet the admissions standards, the university will find a way to enable that student to attend. In addition, just a year or so ago, they removed the loan component of all financial aid packages, so their students will not have to go into debt to attend (they will receive grants, scholarships and work-study money, but wil not be required to take out loans to pay for tuition and other school-related costs). That's part of the advantage of having a multi-billion dollar endowment. I believe that most of the other top-tier institutions in the US have followed suit, if they can afford it.

To answer some of our friend C Elegans other questions about American schools:

It is possible to get and receive a PhD without being published. Depending on which institution awards your degree, you will probably have to do a certain amount of post-graduate coursework, then write and defend a dissertation. Many doctoral students end up publishing their dissertation either in a journal or as a book, but some do not. I cannot speak to the specific disciplines, but in History (my background), it is not necessary to be published in order to get a PhD.

Having said that, everyone in the academic community knows which schools turn out good PhDs and which schools turn out bad PhDs. So if you look at someone's diploma, and see that it is from Duke University, William & Mary, Stanford, etc., you can be reasonably confident that the person holding that PhD earned their degree the hard way. It is when you encounter second, third and fourth tier institutions where the qualifications of such a student are called into question.

As to the title of "professor": at American instutitions, Professor is a rank which carries with it certain implications both in terms of scholarship and pay. There are three basic ranks at most schools (from highest to lowes): Professor, Associate Professor and Assistant Professor. Full-time tenured faculty are hired and promoted within those ranks. There are three basic fields in which professors are evaluated: teaching, scholarship and service.

Different schools emphasise different areas and weight their promotions based on their institutional philosophy. For instance, The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill is primarily a research institution. So its professors live in a "publish or perish" environment; teaching and service are less important than journal articles and conference chairs when considerations such as tenure and promotions are concerned. The University of North Florida in Jacksonville, FL is less concerned with research and its professors are evaluated more for their teaching skills than their research output. Does this mean that professors at UNF conduct inferior research to their peers at UNC? Of course not, but that is not their emphasis. Similarly, professors at UNC are not necessarily poorer in the classroom than the faculty at UNF.
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Post by humanflyz »

@HighLordDave:

I am not saying that being poor automatically disqualifies you from entering good colleges. However, being rich can afford you tutors and preparation classes, which in some cases can drastically improve your score. I know this agency that is made up of ex-college counsellors and admission staff, they will tell you what you need to do and the way you do it on your college appliation. Since they are insiders, so their advice, which costs about $200 an hour, really helps you. Your chance of getting into a good college dramatically improves. I don't see how poor people can afford this rate at $200 an hour. Of course, the rich kid has a better chance, and I just think that's not fair.
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Post by Tamerlane »

Well what a set of varied examinations. Over here, we have a different set exams for each state within Australia. Where I am we have to do the TEE, Tertiary Entrance Examination or something along those lines. They take 50% of your exam scores along with 50% of your school grades and rank all the students from 100% down to 0%

To get into Law or Medicine, not only do you need the prerequisites. But you also need to score in above 99.97. In other words only the top .03 percent of students are eligable for places in Medicine or Law.

Just thought I'd share that.
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Post by humanflyz »

The thing that really bothers me with all these standarized testing, at least within the US, is that most of them don't really affect you. For example, my state, California, forces students to take SAT9, STAR, and the High School Exit Exam. Aside from the stupid and silly acronymns, they don't really affect your grade or your future, except maybe the High School Exit Exam, which to most people who can read, is a joke. If I am not being affected, then why waste my class time?
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Post by Tamerlane »

You guys do three exams?

We only do two down here. First we do our 'mock' exams. Generally a final test to see if you deserve to pass the course. I know of a few teachers who despise this present system. Especially when you consider that the Chemistry examination accounts for 60% of your school grades. This of course is later followed by the University Entrance Exam.

should the SAT be abolished

I can't personally comment on whether it should be abolished, but our government has already established a goal of doing away with our standardised testing by 2005, if I'm not mistaken.
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Post by Timekeeper »

They're doing away with testing? Last I heard, Bush passed mandatory statewide testing of public schools.

Having done a term paper on this topic a couple months back, the flaccid info should still be in my brain, and thus able to contribute. :)

Okay, forget everything about poor schools, racial bias, etc. The SAT was originally made to be an ability test for those entering college who did not have a formal HS education (say from Boomprarie, Wy.; meaning without access to a HS). The way it's become is almost mandatory for all HS students wishing to enter a college. Now, as is, the SAT is there as one of the best objective measures of academic understanding. Grades can't be used alone because they are radically inflated. Combine SAT with GPA to get a more well-rounded measure.

Keep the SAT until something better emerges. SAT and GPA/Class Rank will continue to serve as the benchmark of academic achievement.
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Post by Tamerlane »

Originally posted by Timekeeper
They're doing away with testing? Last I heard, Bush passed mandatory statewide testing of public schools.
True, but Bush isn't in charge of the Australian government. ;)
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Post by Fezek »

Originally posted by Nippy


To study at you need to be of a certain 'calibre' as they put it, that basically means you need to have grades and talent and a glowing reference.

If you have these, then generally you need a lot of money. Terms at these schools cost a hell of a lot of money and generally only those with a 'private' school background get in. The entrance rate of public school students is still ridiculously low. If you have talent and grades they may consider putting you on a scholarship, it all depends on luck...
After getting my A'level results I decided to apply for Cambridge.
I got an A in Econ;an A in Math and a B in GEography. I also got a Distinction in my Econ STEP paper. Do you what they said? You didn't pass your GCSE in Spanish. I worked my pants off in sixth form and I was being judged on GCSE's. "Bog off, Fezek", they says.
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Post by Timekeeper »

Originally posted by Tamerlane


True, but Bush isn't in charge of the Australian government. ;)
Ahhh. I stand informed. Any idiots over there like Bush wanting to see kids be held responsible? :)
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Post by humanflyz »

@Timekeeper: Could you elaborate on your comment about how GPAs are inflated?

I don't think the SAT is the best objective measurement of adcademic understanding. For example, the on verbal part of the SAT, there are three parts, sentence completion, analogy, and reading comprehension. Most of the problems requires a lot of knowledge about words, words that are not usually used in our vernacular, words that we don't speak very often, words that often appears in very academic or very esoteric subjects. Now, for someone who wants to pursue an art career, they are not going to use all their time to memorize these words. They are going to be drawing, painting, etc. Does this mean that their logic or reasoning abilities are inferior to those who do memorize words that they don't know how to really use? In fact, the person pursuing art can have a better logic and reasoning abilities, but just doesn't know the vocabulary. There is a difference between memorization and understanding. To me, the SAT focuses mainly on memorization, since the logic, reasoning, and analytical skills required for the test aren't that demanding.
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Post by Georgi »

Originally posted by Fezek
After getting my A'level results I decided to apply for Cambridge. I got an A in Econ;an A in Math and a B in GEography. I also got a Distinction in my Econ STEP paper. Do you what they said? You didn't pass your GCSE in Spanish. I worked my pants off in sixth form and I was being judged on GCSE's. "Bog off, Fezek", they says.
Look at it this way: nobody applies to Cambridge without top A-level grades. They look at GCSEs as well... You have to have a good all-round record to even have a chance. I agree that to study Economy it doesn't matter; but they have to distinguish somehow between all the applications they get, and they start weeding people out with academic results. (If it makes you feel any better, I was rejected by Oxford because I was terrible in the interviews... ;) )
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Post by Sojourner »

Hmm, I wouldn't get bent out of shape over the non-availability of prep courses for the SAT. As long as you have teachers teaching decent writing courses, are well-read (this is something you must do yourself), and have taken decent math (meaning pre-calc at minimum) and science courses, you'll do fine, with none of those silly prep courses required. My family wasn't rich either, nor did we come from one of those "well-heeled" areas. What made the difference for us was that our family made education a priority, even if it meant making sacrifices. My brother ended up being one of the top scorers on the exam.
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Post by humanflyz »

@Sojourners:

Yeah, being well-read is going to help out a lot. But in California, there are a lot of immigrants that aren't well-read, and they don't have enough time to learn as much as English. In their cases, they really really need test-prep, and they can't really prepare on their own. So their only option is prep classes, but considering that their economic situation, they may not afford the classes. Sure, they maybe hard working and learned, in their own language, but compared to a native, their chances are a lot lower.
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Post by Timekeeper »

Originally posted by humanflyz
@Timekeeper: Could you elaborate on your comment about how GPAs are inflated?
There's a lot of ways you can inflate grades. In my old high school, grades are dependent on what phase you are assigned for a class (level of academic ability). 1 is lowest (college prep), 5 is highest (honors courses).

Now say I have a Phase 3 student earning a B in, say, Biology. If we were to take that B as an average (which is what Phase 3 is), that B would be worth a D to a Phase 5 student, while it would be worth an A to a Phase 2 or 1.

When finding the information for my term paper, I came across several articles pointing out grade inflation in not just high schools, but on a university level as well. Of course, Harvard is the grossest vision, as was seen in the media. In the last decade, of its graduating classes, more than 90% of the students earned at least cum laude, with more than half making summa cum laude.

Several weeks ago, a Philosophy professor at my local college (U of DE) responded in the paper to a dean's remarks that this freshman class was the best yet. Going over class records, the professor looked over grades assigned in his course and discovered that over the last 30 years, he has had to continually raise his grading curve. This is both a demonstration of grade inflation and insufficent academic preperation.

These were just two examples. I'm sure thousands of schools across the nation have their own stories to tell about the situation. Now, the SAT isn't perfect. Hell, it isn't even the only test out there (ACT being a prime contender). The fact remains that the SAT is the most recognizable and the most popular. To eliminate the SAT would be to use a system which every school is different. Get rid of the SAT and you have to find a true objective standard of a student's academic progress.
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