Debunking hoaxes and rumors

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Mar 13, 2002 12:21 pm

I've just this website, which is really nice for its debunking detail: http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blhoax.htm

It's amazing what people will believe.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Mar 13, 2002 12:35 pm

It's a very good site, they both have searchable archives and keep updated with recent hoaxes and rumours.

Another one of similar type: http://www.snopes2.com/

It is indeed amazing what people will believe, and it's quite interesting how deep totally erranous beliefs and myths sometimes can be with no obvious cultural explanation.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Mar 13, 2002 12:44 pm

I can't speak with the Scandanavian countries, @CE, but in Western Europe (as opposed to Northern) and the Americas, many legends get their start as deliberate attempts to drum up patriotic support. The George Washington cherry tree myth, for instance, was created to teach kids the supposed virtue of truth-telling. The pilgrims didn't come to the US for "religious freedom;" they came to escape religious persecution for their notoriously intolerant actions towards non-believers, and imposed those same views on all those who came to their colonies. But that doesn't sound particularly good when you're celebrating Thanksgiving.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:13 am

National lies that form part of the modern folklore is certainly present in all countries to some degree, but in Sweden the degree of patriotism is very low compared to most other countries, so I would guess that intentional creation of such myths are less frequent here. Instead, most modern myths seems to rest on the old "if it is repeated many times, it becomes true"-recipie, and the material is mostly from media and modern adaptions of older religious or myths. Some myths also seem to be connected to introduction of new things, what people find strange, unfamilar or difficult to related to often created myths that suits the new thing/concept/experience into a familar frame of referece.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 7:59 am

Originally posted by fable
It's amazing what people will believe.

What's I find even more amazing is what people will refuse to believe, especially considering some of the things people will believe.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 8:12 am

Re: Re: Debunking hoaxes and rumors

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

What's I find even more amazing is what people will refuse to believe, especially considering some of the things people will believe.

For example?

Another good tool: http://www.skepdic.com/

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 8:21 am

Re: Re: Re: Debunking hoaxes and rumors

Originally posted by Waverly
For example?

I know most people at this board will disagree with me, but here's the example I was specifically thinking of: People seem to find it easy to believe that everything happened against insurmountable odds so that we would evolve to the point we're at right here right now; yet, they find it impossible to believe that God created the universe and us and cares about us.

Note: I'm not trying to start a discussion about creation here, nor do I want to. I'm just giving an example per Waverly's request.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:19 am

Re: Re: Re: Debunking hoaxes and rumors

Originally posted by Waverly
For example?

Another good tool: http://www.skepdic.com/

Pretty good: I'm adding that to my "Fun" folder of things to check on breaks.

They were out-of-date about aromatherapy, though: there's plenty of scientifically conducted and generally accepted research that has occured over the last fiteen years supporting aromatherapy--and some commercial companies are making a killing on it, too. Anti-bacterial household sprays (which began in hospital use) like Lysol are nothing more than tested essential oils known for their antibacterial qualities, dispersed through the atmosphere: orthodox aromatherapy ingredients and delivery mechanisms.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:28 am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Debunking hoaxes and rumors

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn
I know most people at this board will disagree with me, but here's the example I was specifically thinking of: People seem to find it easy to believe that everything happened against insurmountable odds so that we would evolve to the point we're at right here right now...

Those odds are exactly one. It happened. It's like being amazed that number came up in the lottery after it has been drawn. The odds of an event may be remote prior to occurrence, but but there will be an occurrence it's probability will be 100% once it has occurred. You know this.

Fable, you may also enjoy:
http://www.randi.org/

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:41 am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debunking hoaxes and rumors

Originally posted by Waverly
Those odds are exactly one. It happened. It's like being amazed that number came up in the lottery after it has been drawn. The odds of an event may be remote prior to occurrence, but but there will be an occurrence it's probability will be 100% once it has occurred. You know this.

http://www.randi.org/

But when the odds against something happening becomes astronomical, like 1 to 1 thousand trillion, even scientists admit that such a thing actually occurring by accident is impossible. It's too bad they don't apply this principle in all fields of knowledge. But I've found out long ago that faith has less to do with logic and probabilities than it does with psychology. If a person simply refuses to believe in the obvious, nothing you tell him will convince him otherwise.

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:44 am

Let's please keep this thread on the original topic.
If anyone wishes to bring up the evolution/creation debate either start a new thread or find one of the previous ones.
Thank you, T

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:03 am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debunking hoaxes and rumors

Originally posted by Waverly
Fable, you may also enjoy:
http://www.randi.org/

Thanks: it was fun, too. I most certainly do believe in things that are beyond rational proof, such as any concept of deity, but I'm always delighted to see people making intelligent demands for proof of any call by a third party to follow a banner.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 11:15 am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debunking hoaxes and rumors

Originally posted by EMINEM
But when the odds against something happening becomes astronomical, like 1 to 1 thousand trillion, even scientists admit that such a thing actually occurring by accident is impossible. It's too bad they don't apply this principle in all fields of knowledge. But I've found out long ago that faith has less to do with logic and probabilities than it does with psychology. If a person simply refuses to believe in the obvious, nothing you tell him will convince him otherwise.

You don’t get it. Once something has happened the odds are 100%. It’s a mathematical certainty, no longer open to debate among scientists, shepherds, or song writers. It just is.

This is too wearisome to debate again. Follow these links:
http://www.skepdic.com/design.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob.html

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:14 pm

You just proved my argument.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:31 pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debunking hoaxes and rumors

Originally posted by EMINEM

But when the odds against something happening becomes astronomical, like 1 to 1 thousand trillion, even scientists admit that such a thing actually occurring by accident is impossible. It's too bad they don't apply this principle in all fields of knowledge. But I've found out long ago that faith has less to do with logic and probabilities than it does with psychology. If a person simply refuses to believe in the obvious, nothing you tell him will convince him otherwise.

A good allegorical example of this is the Uncle in The Magician's Nephew by C.S. Lewis who was so insistant in his refusal to believe the Narnian animals could talk that he actually heard roars/etc instead of words.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:35 pm

But MM, when the number of tries are so many, it happened even if probablility is low

Originally posted by T'lainya
Let's please keep this thread on the original topic.
If anyone wishes to bring up the evolution/creation debate either start a new thread or find one of the previous ones.
Thank you, T

Like T' says, we shouldn't debate evolution and creationism here, either we start a new thread or bump the old one.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:37 pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debunking hoaxes and rumors

Originally posted by Waverly
Those odds are exactly one. It happened. It's like being amazed that number came up in the lottery after it has been drawn. The odds of an event may be remote prior to occurrence, but but there will be an occurrence it's probability will be 100% once it has occurred. You know this.

You're generalizing a bit too much, I believe. If something has happened, the odds of it happening are unchanged. The odds that it has happened are at 100%, of course. So, the odds of evolution happening are still insurmountably against it happening. Also, considering that evolution is supposed to be a 'continuing' thing, it would happen innumrable(sp?) times at the cellular and molecular level, which means that the odds for it happening each of those times are sitll insurmountably against it happening, no matter how many times it might have happened in the past.

Of course, all of that is irrelevant because evolution didn't happen, which means that the odds that it has happened are not at 100% and the odds of it happening are still insurmountably against it.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:42 pm

Re: But MM, when the number of tries are so many, it happened even if probablility is low

Originally posted by C Elegans

Like T' says, we shouldn't debate evolution and creationism here, either we start a new thread or bump the old one.

Just so it is known, I'm not discussing evolution and creationism. I am discussing probability and how amazing it is that people will actually believe ridiculous things.

when the number of tries are so many, it happened even if probablility is low

Except that the odds are still the same as the first time, even when there have been 999 billion tries.

Robnark · Post by **Robnark** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:43 pm

apologies for posting on this topic but:

the point is that it is unsurmountably improbable that any other outcome would happen, thus, while it is amazing we are human, if we were slugs the probability of that happening would be just as unlikely. it is only amazing if you believe that evolution is deliberately trying to make a human. it isn't, that's the point.

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:54 pm

*AHEM* I see my request is being ignored. This thread was about debunking hoaxes and rumors; not the odds and probabilities of humans evolving from chance or a creation plan.
I do not appreciate some of you trying to sidestep my request to keep this thread on topic!