Women issues

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:50 pm

Same here, Sleepy!

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
Well i am always opening doors for people and generally being a gentlemen when possible, it is not because i feel i need to, it is just what i do. I also do it for everyone, not just women.

I have had this dicussion with many different women, the general concensous is that it is not a bad thing to be a gentlemen, just don't take it to extremes, making a great point out of being a gentlemen and belittling women is the thing to avoid.

Being nice and a gentleman to the ladies is one think I like doing. Not because I have to nor does it mean that I think that they are weaker.

I love my women.

I love taking care of them.

As for CE's queries, Asian culture is rich in problems relating to gender issues. More often than not, the women are at the receiving end of a bad thing. Wish I could elaborate more. I'll try later but I have to go now.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 1:41 am

Originally posted by Krusader

I mean that there are things in life that women do better than men. And there are things that are done better by men.

No, there are no things whatsoever that are done better by any man rather then any woman or the other way around. To force people into the male/female stereotype IS descrimintation, no matter if you think the steroetypes is "equal" or not.

About personal examples of gender discrimination they are everywhere, If i only look as far as to my own family for example, my little sister is treated very different from me. She have always been less trusted to handle things like machines or fireworks even on the occasions were both her interests and experience with such things have been greater then mine. There is also difference between how we are treated by others in arguments and debates etc.

I would also like to add that i never encountered any feminists that act as described in this thread, even those that are activists tend to be just like people in general (and that means they smile and say thanks when one opens the door for them)

As far as i know feminism are defined as the struggle for equal right between men and woman. I would much like to know who does not find this a fair thing.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 5:01 am

Originally posted by Der-draigen

*cough* doubt it *cough* [/b]

I guess you haven't heard much about our sad stories...

...but seriously we do have, but am not much in the mood to recall them...

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:23 am

Originally posted by Dottie
No, there are no things whatsoever that are done better by any man rather then any woman or the other way around. To force people into the male/female stereotype IS descrimintation, no matter if you think the steroetypes is "equal" or not.

Are you trying to say that a man could give birth to, or breast-feed, a baby just 'easily' as a woman can?

There are things that women have an easier time doing than men and things that men have an easier time doing than women. That's not to say that, for most of these things, the man can't do what the woman can do or the woman can't do what the man can do; it just means it's easier for one than the other.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:28 am

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

Are you trying to say that a man could give birth to, or breast-feed, a baby just 'easily' as a woman can?

There are things that women have an easier time doing than men and things that men have an easier time doing than women. That's not to say that, for most of these things, the man can't do what the woman can do or the woman can't do what the man can do; it just means it's easier for one than the other.

Heh, i wasnt really referring to reproduction issues, sorry for not making that clear. But know that you mention it there are indeed some woman who cant give birth to babies.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:32 am

I agree with Sailor...

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

Are you trying to say that a man could give birth to, or breast-feed, a baby just 'easily' as a woman can?

There are things that women have an easier time doing than men and things that men have an easier time doing than women. That's not to say that, for most of these things, the man can't do what the woman can do or the woman can't do what the man can do; it just means it's easier for one than the other.

...just because the other can do certain things better on a given situation doesn't mean they are not equal. I am more inclined to believe that the sexes complement one another like nuts and bolts.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:36 am

If we get past basic biological differences that involve reproduction, what exactly can women do better than men, and vice versa?

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:43 am

Originally posted by fable
If we get past basic biological differences that involve reproduction, what exactly can women do better than men, and vice versa?

Nothing that I can think of. Sadly, it's what other cultures dictate on what limitations each gender can or can not do. More like, should or should not do.

Incidentally, there is a Catholic (all-girl) school in my country that doesn't accept male teachers. Go figure why...

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:01 am

by Frogus:
This is a nasty effect whixh has come from the inability to think for oneself which I got angry about earlier. It is embodied by the ignorant "feminists" who you see on TV, claiming that women are better than men, seeking revenge blindly like animals. It is similar to the (occasional) anti-white outbursts of Malcolm X. It can lead into a vicious cycle.

by Dottie
As far as i know feminism are defined as the struggle for equal right between men and woman. I would much like to know who does not find this a fair thing.

Feminsim has changed much since the 1960's, and presently there are several different "schools" of feminism. Most feminsist I know of, struggle for equal likes Dottie describes, but as is the case in most areas, there are also extremists like the ones Frogus refers to, and unfortunately the extremists often get unproportial amounts of media attention. I have met a few feminsts who view men as inferior beings who should be used as much as possible as a revenge for 2000 years of opression.

by Georgi
There are probably just as many men out there who've had bad relationship experiences with women.

by Der-draigen
*cough* doubt it *cough*

I've always had as many male friends as female, and believe me, men with disappointing and bad relationship experiences are as common as women. Women cheating and telling 6 months later, women starting relationships with others and not breaking up their current relationship until they are "safe" in the new relationship, women in long term relationships who lies about taking the pill and force unwanted fatherhood on the men they live with, women who just use the men for sexual/emotional gratificiation and don't care about the individual, women who check out the man's social security number on the driving licence and then call the tax-authorities to check up the man's income, etc etc. Neither as a private person nor as a psychologists have I experienced that men in general have happier or better relationship experiences than women have.

Interesting to note is also that more men than females (at least where I live) seek psychotherapy for failed relationships, and several studies have shown that men at group level fare worse than women after divorce. This is believed to be due to the male gender role steretype, where men risk to be viewed as "weak" and "unmasculine" if they show grief and sadness, and also, men at a group level have less friends than females, why they became more lonely after a divorce.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:25 am

Originally posted by Dottie
Heh, i wasnt really referring to reproduction issues, sorry for not making that clear. But know that you mention it there are indeed some woman who cant give birth to babies.

True, but how many men are there that can birth, ne?

Even in something where one gender is generally better at than the other gender, that doesn't mean that everyone of that gender is better at it, or even capable of doing it. It also doesn't mean that everyone in the other gender isn't as good at it.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:28 am

Originally posted by fable
If we get past basic biological differences that involve reproduction, what exactly can women do better than men, and vice versa?

I honestly can't think of anything specific at this moment. I'll get back to you on this later.

Krusader · Post by **Krusader** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:35 pm

originally posted by SS
...just because the other can do certain things better on a given situation doesn't mean they are not equal. I am more inclined to believe that the sexes complement one another like nuts and bolts.

I couldn't agree more.

by Georgi
There are probably just as many men out there who've had bad relationship experiences with women.

by Der-draigen
*cough* doubt it *cough*

Yes there are. The reason why is not commonly seen is because while women tend to talk about their problems, men tend to retreat into themselves and rarely talk about it. As CE stated men who complain or talk about how emotionally broken they are, are often viewed as weak or unmasculine. (And not only by his male fellows but also by women, my ex-gf hated when I cried, she used to say "how can you be so weak? Don't you feel bad crying like a baby? Couldn't you take it like a man ?) Yeah, I'm a man, but I'm also human too. And I've also got feelings. In fact, men are emotionally weaker than women, that's why we need to resort to chauvinism attitudes. Chauvinism is like an armor that keeps the other from seeing how fragile we are.

Originally posted by fable
If we get past basic biological differences that involve reproduction, what exactly can women do better than men, and vice versa?

As for some differences between women and man aside from reproductive matters, here are two:

+Scientific studies have shown that nicotine harms women more than men.
+Another scientific study demonstrated that men are better then women while determining distances and manipulating objects in 3D. That's why men have fewer problems parking their cars in very tight spaces.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 3:04 pm

Originally posted by Krusader

As for some differences between women and man aside from reproductive matters, here are two:

<snip>

+Another scientific study demonstrated that men are better then women while determining distances and manipulating objects in 3D. That's why men have fewer problems parking their cars in very tight spaces.

I wouldn't go there Krusader

I have heard, also, that men have better spatial awareness, but as to maneuvering a car? Ok, ok - so most people taking their cars into a garage for attention to body work that has had low impact damage, are women, what does this say about men? that they are less likely to damage their cars? No. Other studies have shown that it is more likely that men will end up in high speed collisions than women - high speed collisions tend to write off the vehicle, hence the vehicle is not brought in for minor repair...but no gender advantage is offered to women, such as they are more likely to be better able to judge speed and distance...

I would hazard that since it is more likely that an insurance claim by men is higher than that of women, this would explain why men pay a higher premium (at least in the UK)

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 4:23 pm

Originally posted by Krusader
+Scientific studies have shown that nicotine harms women more than men.
+Another scientific study demonstrated that men are better then women while determining distances and manipulating objects in 3D. That's why men have fewer problems parking their cars in very tight spaces.

It feels like I've posted this 100000 times before, but here goes again: At group level, ie when you compare the mean of one large group with the mean of another large group (usually hundreds of individuals), there are some differences between men's and women's test results. This does not mean that the differences hold for each indiviudal case, they are statistical differences.

1. Men score higher on mental rotation tasks, ie like the tasks Krusader describes. This cannot however be generalised to car parking, even though I know some people like to draw these premature conclusions.
2. Women have faster visual perception than men, ie they detect a visual stimulus faster.
3. Women score higher in arithmetic tests.
4. Women have faster hand and finger motorics than men.

We do not know how much, of these differences are due to genetic factors or learned factors. Time will tell. However, I think anyone who has ever seen the kind of test we use for assessment of cognitive functioning in research, will understand why a result in mental rotation or Corsi block tapping can't be generalised to everyday life. On the contrary, one of the problems with cognitive tests used for research are that they show very low correlation to any everyday-life variables.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 4:27 pm

Originally posted by Krusader

As for some differences between women and man aside from reproductive matters, here are two:

+Scientific studies have shown that nicotine harms women more than men.
+Another scientific study demonstrated that men are better then women while determining distances and manipulating objects in 3D. That's why men have fewer problems parking their cars in very tight spaces.

I've never heard of this nicotine study, but it sounds like it does nothing more than confirm what pediatricians and vets have said for years: that drugs have a stronger effect on lower body mass.

As for the 3D thing: I've heard this, but I've seen no studies proving it. And I know there's a very great distinction in spatial awareness within any group of men. I'm very poor, for example--but my wife (certifiably a woman, and I'm definitely glad of that) is extremely good. I'm much better at color, texture, and 2D shapes than she is.

But again, as I wrote in another topic, nobody is saying that men and women are identical. There are minor biological differences, and major sexual ones. But when it comes to matters such as speaking to one another, aggressiveness, subjects of interest, etc, I've yet to see anything that proves nature is the determinant, rather than nurture.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 4:41 pm

Originally posted by fable
As for the 3D thing: I've heard this, but I've seen no studies proving it. And I know there's a very great distinction in spatial awareness within any group of men. I'm very poor, for example--but my wife (certifiably a woman, and I'm definitely glad of that) is extremely good. I'm much better at color, texture, and 2D shapes than she is.

Interindividual variability, ie differences between individuals, is much larger than the differences between gender, also for the tasks where gender differences can be seen at group level.

I think one problem is that people often draw too detailed conclusions from study results. I have often complained that media simplifies and speculates in scientific observations so they often get distorted beyond recognition, and I still claim this to be one of the main reasons why so many premature conclusions are drawn from inconsistent data, or data that doesn't necessarily mean this at all.

PS Fable, are you sure you don't mean the other way around in your last sentence? Or am I just reading it wrong?

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 5:09 pm

Sigh...I hate to get into this kind of argument. If you want to argue the differences genetically, think about this:
More genetic problems occur in males than females. Why?
Women have two X chromosomes.
Men have one X and one Y.
If there is a defect in an X chromosome--
With women their healthy X chromosome will dominate and while they could be a carrier of the problem, it will not be apparent.
With men, the problem will be apparent because the Y chromosome is no help to them there. The same is true for them if the Y chromosome is defective.

Anyway, I really feel that men and women are more alike than different, and we squabble over really minor differences. For every person you find who fits a stereotype, you will find just as many who do not. I certainly do not believe that the women at Gamebanshee will fit many stereotypes, since women gamers are still not the norm. Hell, I could start a whole thread on why the women here play computer games...

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 5:17 pm

Originally posted by VoodooDali
I certainly do not believe that the women at Gamebanshee will fit many stereotypes, since women gamers are still not the norm. Hell, I could start a whole thread on why the women here play computer games...

Please do, I'll bet it would be an interesting thread

In our generation and our culture, female gamers might still not be the norm, but amoung younger people, especially in Asia, girls play as much if not more computer games than boys.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 5:21 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans

Please do, I'll bet it would be an interesting thread

In our generation and our culture, female gamers might still not be the norm, but amoung younger people, especially in Asia, girls play as much if not more computer games than boys.

Hmmm - this could also become an age issue

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 5:31 pm

Originally posted by Yshania

Hmmm - this could also become an age issue

In Sweden, and I suspect this might be the case in North Western Europe in general, age discrimination and age stereotypes are IMO more obvious and more frequent than gender discrimination.