Curiosity killed the cat...

[Sailor Saturn]

...but the cat came back the very next day.

I'm currently curious about the opinions ya'll have about age difference, specifically in reference to relationships.

My parents are 10½ years apart in age. My dad is 53 and my mom is 42. At there age, it's rare(if it happens at all) for someone to say "Oh, he's too old for her" or "Oh, she's too young for him" etc.

However, when a 20-year-old and a 15-year-old date, it can usually be heard from somewhere a comment saying that one is too old/young for the other, though there is only a 5 year difference in those two ages.

Certainly at a younger age there has to be more of a limit on the age difference, that I don't certainly don't dispute. If I, an 18-year-old, were to get in a relationship with someone who was 10½ years younger than me, I'd be dating an 8-year-old. An 8-year-old is, of course, just too young.

However, this leaves me curious as to where lines are drawn. When I was 16, there was someone I really, really liked who was only 13. That's only a 3 year age difference, yet it seemed like a bigger age difference than the 10½ year age difference of my parents. Right now, there is a very pretty 12-year-old who has a crush on me. That's a 6 year difference, obviously bigger dif than with the 13-year-old, but still a smaller difference than is between my 'rents. I'm not interested in(at least, not until a few more years pass) a relationship with this 12-year-old for several reasons(namely, I don't want to get in trouble), but I do wonder if I am 'too old' for the 12-year-old or not. And, if I currently am 'too old' for the 12-year-old, then in...say, 3 years, when the 12-year-old is 15 and I'm 21, will I still be 'too old' for this person? What about in 10 years when I'm 28 and the 12-year-old is 22?

So, what's your opinions of my questions and what's your opinion of how the age difference thing seems to increase as one gets older?

[Shadow Sandrock]

I think that nobody is "too young" for each other as long as there's love involved. However there is a limit; if a 20 year old went out with a 10 year old they probably wouldn't have as serious of a romantic relationship whereas if a 18 year old went out with a 12 year old. I mean, there is a point where you're just not mature enough. However I can't speak for ALL 10 year olds...

[Waverly]

Sailor: Not all age differences are relative. There is a boundary between childhood and adulthood that really should never be spanned unless the age difference is extremely small. Most people put that boundary age somewhere between 17 and 18, and I’d tend to agree with that. As a rule of thumb, those younger than this are not mature enough to have a relationship with an adult, and it could potentially be very damaging for them. About the only exception I could see to this rule that I think is healthy would be classmates where one had just become an adult and the other was about to cross over, a 16 and an 18 year old for example.

Once both parties are adult, I think that smaller age difference will be successful more often for younger persons, but age differences of up to 10 years should be workable. As the persons in question advance in age, even larger differences may be viable.

Some friendly advice from Uncle Waverly if you will take it: It will be along time before this 12 year old is mature enough to have a healthy relationship with an adult such as yourself. It’s not good for either of you to dwell on it.

[Der-draigen]

Yeah, what Waverly said

[VoodooDali]

My significant other is 15 years older than me, agewise. Emotionally--we are tied. Actually, I'm the more introverted serious one, and he acts much younger than me--has a kind of joie de vivre that I love. I keep telling him that his motto is "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." He's my very own Hippie.

[Der-draigen]

I'm honestly not trying to spam up the thread; I just think this is appropriate

Anyone here ever see "All About Eve"? There's a scene where Margo (Bette Davis) and her best friend Karen are having a conversation. Margo has just turned 40 and her fiance, Bill, has just turned 32. Margo has a bit of a complex about being older than Bill; this theme goes all through the movie. It comes up in her conversation with Karen.

Karen: Margo! Bill is all of eight years younger than you! (She sounds like she thinks it's no big deal, even a little ridiculous for Margo to worry about the age difference.)

Margo: And those years stretch as the years go on. I've seen it happen all too often.

I think the point here is: if one partner ages ahead of the other, there can be problems. I've seen it myself, with people I know. The problems may not be insurmountable, but they certainly need to be addressed and dealt with, lest they cause some serious damage. *ahem* I don't mean to stereotype here, or to get off the subject; but I've found that this is especially true when the woman is significantly older than the man.

@SS: Re your particular case: I think Waverly is right. Twelve year-olds get crushes on people all the time. It's the hero-worship stage. I personally don't think a 12 year-old would be emotionally mature enough to get involved with anyone, even someone their own age. They have a lot of growing and self-discovering to do, and I think it's best if they're left alone with plenty of room to do it in. In that sense, yes, an 18 year-old would be too old for the 12 year-old. But then again, like I said, I would hesitate to say that it would be okay for a 12 year-old to get "involved" even with another 12 year-old.

Looked at from the other side, from the side of the 18 year-old -- the 18 year-old is an adult, the 12 year-old is a child. There is a vast amount of stuff that happens in those 6 years between 12 and 18. The 18 year-old has had time to develop an adult sense of emotion, self-awareness, worldview, boundaries, etc. etc. etc. The 12 year-old has all that ahead of them. They still don't know what they want to be when they grow up, for crying out loud. (Well, I still don't know that myself, but be that as it may ) There is no way a 12 year-old could provide the kind of intellectual, emotional, or physical (don't mean to be vulgar; it's part of relationship) stimulation or support that an adult person desires and deserves.

[Aegis]

What Waverly says is pretty much the truth. It all boils down to the maturity. Your parents are mature enough to be in a relationship where their is an age difference like that. I probably am not (being only 16) Now, that doesn't mean I only date girls my age, I personally like em about a year or two older. I'm just saying it's kind've not well received when someone my age goes out with someone older than 18, or younger than 14, but again, it's because of maturity level.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Waverly
Sailor: Not all age differences are relative. There is a boundary between childhood and adulthood that really should never be spanned unless the age difference is extremely small. Most people put that boundary age somewhere between 17 and 18, and I’d tend to agree with that. As a rule of thumb, those younger than this are not mature enough to have a relationship with an adult, and it could potentially be very damaging for them. About the only exception I could see to this rule that I think is healthy would be classmates where one had just become an adult and the other was about to cross over, a 16 and an 18 year old for example.

Once both parties are adult, I think that smaller age difference will be successful more often for younger persons, but age differences of up to 10 years should be workable. As the persons in question advance in age, even larger differences may be viable.

Some friendly advice from Uncle Waverly if you will take it: It will be along time before this 12 year old is mature enough to have a healthy relationship with an adult such as yourself. It’s not good for either of you to dwell on it.

I understand that there is a boundary. Part of this though is how do you define that boundry? It's easier for some people than for others. i.e., those of ya'll who are older(specifically mid 20s and older), it's easier(I would think) to define someone as "too young" because it's been longer since you were that young. My teenage years seem to have flown by rather quickly and I've always been more attracted to those younger than me rather than those older than me, thus it wasn't all that long ago(and seems like even less time) since there was no reason for me to not look to 12-year-olds for the close friendship that can lead into a more intimate relationship. That just serves to cause confusion.

I have absolutely no intention of being anything more than a friend with this 12-year-old, for several reasons, including that fact that the person is only 12.

As for development being a way to 'measure' what is too young and what isn't, what type of development?

Physical? Well, this is just according to statistics, but people seem to be, generally, developing physically at earlier ages than just a few decades ago, especially us girls.

Mental? Well, some people development faster mentally than others, so this can vary as well.

Emotional? Same arguement as mental.

If you base your decision completely on those three factors, then you might get someone who is(though this may be unlikely) pretty much a 16- to 18-year-old at the age of 12 or 13, though that's a bit ridiculous. Why not just go with a 16- or 18-year-old?

Like I said before, things can get confusing.

Something that Sandy and I talked about earlier on AIM after I posted this topic was the fact that love doesn't know any age boundry, but love is patient. If 'true love' really does exist between two people then it can and will wait until both people are ready. At least, that's what I believe.

BTW, I recently realized that I'm not really ready to have another boyfriend or girlfriend yet anyway. Physically and intellectually, I'm plenty developed, but I've still got a lot of emotional growth to go through. Not that that'll keep me from flirting, of course.

I still want to hear more opinions, so keep'em coming.

[dragon wench]

As well as emotional and physical maturity....there are also cultural and historical factors to consider......

It is interesting to note that "childhood," is a fairly recent phenomena in historical terms. In Western Europe and North America, the notion of childhood as we perceive it now has not been around for any longer than about a 150 years, if even that........

Further, in "non western," cultures people are often married before the age of 18, and are expected to assume the full responsibilities that adulthood entails.

Clearly this gets somewhat away from your original question SS, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by dragon wench
As well as emotional and physical maturity....there are also cultural and historical factors to consider......

It is interesting to note that "childhood," is a fairly recent phenomena in historical terms. In Western Europe and North America, the notion of childhood as we perceive it now has not been around for any longer than about a 150 years, if even that........

Further, in "non western," cultures people are often married before the age of 18, and are expected to assume the full responsibilities that adulthood entails.

Clearly this gets somewhat away from your original question SS, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Actually, I think it applies rather well. This is something I was hoping would get mentioned, how culture affects people's viewpoints.

When my Great Grandmother got married, she was only 13 and my Great Grandpa was...18, IIRC. That right there was back in the 1910's, less than 100 years ago. Now, that would be illegal without the consent of the parents and almost definitely be frowned upon, at least, if two that age got married. In Carlsbad, Texas, there was a girl I knew who was 13 and had an 18-year-old boyfriend. However, with her, you couldn't tell she was 13 just by looking at her, or even by spending time with her. She looked and acted like she was at least 16 or 17. By now, she's 15 and he's 20. Of course, pretty much everyone in Carlsbad, Texas is weird, even by SYM standards.

While culture does shape our viewpoint on things, there is also the 'fact' that some things might be feasable in one culture, but not in another. When my Great Grandmother got married, the important thing was for a girl to get married and start a family while her husband worked to provide everything that was needed, and all that. Nowadays, starting a family is something that "can be done later," after we finish schooling and all that stuff. Getting married at the age of 13 would very likely be a lot more problematic for a girl in the 21st century than it was for a girl in the early 20th century, ne?

[dragon wench]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn
While culture does shape our viewpoint on things, there is also the 'fact' that some things might be feasable in one culture, but not in another. When my Great Grandmother got married, the important thing was for a girl to get married and start a family while her husband worked to provide everything that was needed, and all that. Nowadays, starting a family is something that "can be done later," after we finish schooling and all that stuff. Getting married at the age of 13 would very likely be a lot more problematic for a girl in the 21st century than it was for a girl in the early 20th century, ne?

Interesting you should bring up schooling.....

Certainly in Canada, and I suspect elsewhere, it were the middle class "social reformers" of the late nineteenth century who were largely responsible for precipitating compulsory education. They believed that children should not be treated as adults and within their philosophy was the strong belief that education should be a fundamental component of childhood.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by dragon wench
Interesting you should bring up schooling.....

Certainly in Canada, and I suspect elsewhere, it were the middle class "social reformers" of the late nineteenth century who were largely responsible for precipitating compulsory education. They believed that children should not be treated as adults and within their philosophy was the strong belief that education should be a fundamental component of childhood.

I honestly don't know the 'history of the school system' for the US, but I'd be interested in seeing how it affected the viewpoint on what's "too young" and such. Perhaps fable, or one of the other SYMers who knows a lot of information, will provide some insight.

It'd also be interesting to see how educational reform(or whatever one would call it) affected such views in other countries as well. No sense in limiting it to North America, ne?

[Waverly]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn
I understand that there is a boundary. Part of this though is how do you define that boundry?

Well, I gave an example of a boundary, and within a small margin of error, the ages I gave agree with the standing laws in all 50 US states. I think it’s somewhat irresponsible to search for examples of people younger than this age who would be mature enough handle an adult relationship. People, unfortunately cannot be trusted to use their own best judgment, so a uniform, conservative line must be drawn. Will there be 15 year olds who could have had a healthy relationship with a 19 year old excluded from doing so? Yes. But for every one of them there will be several more who are safer and happier because they would not have been mature enough.

More dangerous still is looking at a youngster and saying, “well, they certainly look like an adult.” Clearly physical development does not necessarily match emotional development, and I hope people here understand this.

I have absolutely no intention of being anything more than a friend with this 12-year-old, for several reasons, including that fact that the person is only 12.

Good, I’m glad to hear this. I do think you would benefit from spending some time with people closer to your own age, though.

As for development being a way to 'measure' what is too young and what isn't, what type of development?.

As I mentioned, emotional development is the key. Since no one is qualified to be the arbiter of who is, and who is not ready for an adult relationship on an individual basis, a single conservative best-fit is used.

[Sailor Saturn]

@Waverly, I just typed up a reply to your post, but my damn comp froze before I could post it. I don't have time to try to retype it right now cause I have to leave for class, but I do want to say this much.

Originally posted by Waverly
[/color]I do think you would benefit from spending some time with people closer to your own age, though.

I generally get along better with people who are at least a few years younger than me. Right now, I don't know anyone who is the same age as me, unless there are some in a few of my classes in college that I don't know the age of.

[Sailor Saturn]

Okay, let's see if I can get things typed up this time and actually get it posted...

Originally posted by Waverly
Well, I gave an example of a boundary, and within a small margin of error, the ages I gave agree with the standing laws in all 50 US states. I think it’s somewhat irresponsible to search for examples of people younger than this age who would be mature enough handle an adult relationship. People, unfortunately cannot be trusted to use their own best judgment, so a uniform, conservative line must be drawn. Will there be 15 year olds who could have had a healthy relationship with a 19 year old excluded from doing so? Yes. But for every one of them there will be several more who are safer and happier because they would not have been mature enough.

More dangerous still is looking at a youngster and saying, “well, they certainly look like an adult.” Clearly physical development does not necessarily match emotional development, and I hope people here understand this.

As I mentioned, emotional development is the key. Since no one is qualified to be the arbiter of who is, and who is not ready for an adult relationship on an individual basis, a single conservative best-fit is used.

I understand all this, and my point with the examples I gave was that even with the current definition line set up by laws, it doesn't apply to everyone equally. IIRC, a minor can legally marry if his/her parents give permission. Thus, it is regulated. All parties involved have to agree that the person in question is old enough. By all parties, I mean the person, the person s/he wants to marry, and the parents.

Just as some people may mature sooner, others may take longer to mature. I think I mentioned that I am physically and intellectually plenty matured, but I am lacking in emotional maturity(I'm sure many on this board would agree with me on this ).

But I find myself left with these questions. Who decided that a person becomes an adult at the age of 18? How was it decided. How accurate was the decision? What affect did/do cultures have on the decision?

[Shadow Sandrock]

Nobody ever said that you have to be 18 to be an adult. Being 18 doesn't make you fully grown up or mature or anything. Being 18 is simply a caliber that tells you that you have the right to do older things that wouldn't be appropriate for a child. It isn't because everyone is a child at 17, it's because some still are. Besides these are still mostly high school kids, they should not be smoking or drinking. In fact nobody should but let's not get into that... but being 18 pretty much means that by now ALL people of that age should be mature enough to handle the responsibilities of living on your own and voting responsibly, just like by the age of 21 you should know how to handle alcohol responsibly.

Now as far as being emotionally mature goes, a LOT goes on during high school. For a college student to date a 7th grader would be rather inappropriate since the child has not had the opportunity to grow up really into full adult. It would almost be pedophilic. However, 12 is pretty much the age where you start to mature mentally and emotionally, and for most people physically. therefore it's best to stay just friends for a little while longer, Hotaru, until you're certain that she's ready for an intimate relationship with you.

[Waverly]

SS: I know the laws don’t address every situation, but I think the intent is to err on the side of caution.

I can appreciate why these issues concern you being that, as you say, your emotional age lags behind your physical age a bit. Still, you shouldn’t forget that you are a young woman, and by no means a child. Just out of curiosity, how can an intelligent college student like yourself find intellectual stimulation with acquaintances that are significantly younger? College is great time and place to make friends… just something to consider.

I’m unclear how the states set their current guidelines, though I suspect there are several factors. One good way to look at it is: should this person be considered an adult if they could not be self sufficient and support themselves if they were on their own? Below the age of 16 or so, I’d imagine the answer is nearly always ‘no’.

Am I making any sense? I can’t tell.

[Yshania]

@Waverly - yes you are!

[C Elegans]

Grr, I wrote a long post earlier today that disappeared the moment I sent it because my browser crash. I try again:

As several others have pointed out, it's very important to note that different areas mature with different speed in almost all teenagers – this is normal, and it is depending on both genetic, biological and sociocultural factors.

Physical maturity is regulated both by our genes and by environmental factors such as diet, climate and hard exercise. Some studies suggest that sociocultural factors also play a role, but this is yet uncertain. Girls mature faster than boys in the Western society, on average girls are 2 years ahead. North Europeans are the slowest to reach puberty, it's believed to be due to the cold climate. The interindividual variability is large, some people look like adults when they are 12, others not until they are 20.

Cognitive, or intellectual maturity, also differs widely between young individuals. Small children think in a concrete way, as we get older we develop abstract thinking and reasoning, and we learn lots of things that we can use to predict and understand situations. Cognitive functions is also an important prerequisite for our moral values and life philosophy – if you ask a 5 year old why you shouldn’t steal something from another person, most say something like "it’s wrong" or "it’s mean". If you ask a 12-year old, you usually hear a reasoning, based on principles.

Emotional and social development is perhaps what differs the most between individuals, since this relies heavily upon learning and experience. What's problematic when we are young, is that our identity and integrity is not stable and strong yet, and that makes us easy prey for abuse or exploitation from adults. Teenagers are usually more sensitive to peer pressure and pressure from people they admire or look up to, so it's difficult to assure that a very young person is doing something because he or she really wants it, not because somebody else has affected them to want it. Self-knowledge, understanding of other people and understanding in social relationship are crucial for all of us.

These three areas sometimes develop together, but more often than not, different areas develop with different speed. It's not all unusual to see a teenager with the body of an adult and the mind of a child. The other way around can also happen – my little 2nd cousin for instance is 13 and she looks like a little girl, but she has the reasoning, the social abilities and the responsibilites of an adult. She is certainly mature enough to take care of a child, although I of course think she should go to school and develop herself as an individual instead!

I think we all agree that the boundary between childhood and adulthood should never be crossed in romantic or sexual relationships. The difficult area is the transition between the two, the adolescence, when one is neither a child or an adult – or both. As a rule, I don't think and 18-year old and a 12-year old should not have a romantic relationship, instead, stay friends – a close friendship contains lots of love, appreciating, emotional intimacy etc. Of course there are exceptions, but it takes a long time to make sure that this particular 12-year old is such an exception, so you need to develop a close friendship anyway to be able to assess this. The degree of physical maturity is of course visible, but to assess the other two areas and also, how well integrated they are, one needs to know a person very well. How independent a person is, how emotionally stable, how able to cope with difficulties and how deep self-knowledge a person has, are fundamental but complicated areas to assess.

When both people are adult, I think age differences of 10-15 years are of minor importance. It's important when we are young, and it might become important again as we get old, since a large age difference might leave one person alone early. I used to have a friend whose father was 22 years older than her mother, and he never got to see his grandchildren and her mother was made a widow only 50 years old.
With teenagers, it's different because we develop and change much faster as teens than as adults, time is sort of concentrated, most people change much more between 13-15 than between 33-35. That's why the same number of years must be judged differently in teenage relationships than in adult relationships.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Waverly
SS: I know the laws don’t address every situation, but I think the intent is to err on the side of caution.

Logical, though sometimes easier said than done.

I can appreciate why these issues concern you being that, as you say, your emotional age lags behind your physical age a bit. Still, you shouldn’t forget that you are a young woman, and by no means a child. Just out of curiosity, how can an intelligent college student like yourself find intellectual stimulation with acquaintances that are significantly younger? College is great time and place to make friends… just something to consider.

I can answer this, but it's a little complex. Since I was in 4th or 5th grade, and sometimes earlier, I've been able to hold conversations with an adult just as other adults can, sometimes better and remain more in control emotionally(but only because I sorta shut off my emotions). Because of this, I rarely had many friends. I was also, for most of my life, a bit behind everyone in emotional maturity, which only made it all the more difficult to make many friends my own age. As adults rarely were willing to converse with a "little girl," I found that the only ones I could spend time with and enjoy spending time with tended to be those a few years younger than me. Even now that I'm legally an adult, I tend to get ignored when there is a conversation amongst adults going on as they tend to still view me as "a little girl." At this point, though, I've kinda put a bit of a stall(except for school itself) on intellectual development and am now focusing on becoming more emotionally mature. Thus, I'm not really looking for intellectual stimulation from my irl friends. I just want some friends with which I can get together and have a good time. And as for making friends at college...well, I've made a several friends over the past couple of semesters, but we only see each other when we happen to bump into each other walking to classes, and I'm too shy to make any closer friends than that at college.

I’m unclear how the states set their current guidelines, though I suspect there are several factors. One good way to look at it is: should this person be considered an adult if they could not be self sufficient and support themselves if they were on their own? Below the age of 16 or so, I’d imagine the answer is nearly always ‘no’.

For nowadays, I'd agree with you that below the age of 16 or so the answer is nearly always 'no.' As recent as the 1900s, though, that was different. Nowadays, however, you need a college degree for just about any job, or so it seems.

Am I making any sense? I can’t tell.

You are making sense, at least, it appears that way to me, but I'm not necessarily the best judge.