Please note that new user registrations disabled at this time.

Is it fair?

Anything goes... just keep it clean.
User avatar
fable
Posts: 30676
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
Contact:

Post by fable »

Originally posted by frogus
Doctors can look at people, observe the fact that they are afflicted with the flu and prescribe medicines to cure them. Now I (or you) could look at the same person, see that they have a flu...but not know what to do.
Similarly, I can see when a radio is broken, I can tell when a car has broken down...but noone except for a doctor, an electrician and a mechanic (respectively) in these cases would claim knowledge of a solution. What makes you think that just anyone off the street knows what to do in a case of a dangerous criminal?
Yet you're saying at the same time that solutions proposed and endorsed by people in the field for dealing with, let's say, drunk drivers who kill people--putting them behind bars for a long time--are less effective than some qualitatively nebulous "educate until they know better." Thus, on the one hand, you write, "I'm not a professional, I can't say," while on the other, you write, "Experts on crime and the law don't have the solution to dealing with violent crimes; I do, and it's reeducation."

The quote above also contradicts your initial remarks in this thread. "When someone breaks the law, we shouldn't lock them up and deny them all sorts of pleasure which keep a person sane and well balanced. We should try and 'fix' them..." You clearly *do* "claim knowledge of a solution. So I'd still like an answer to the question I previously proposed:

Take a cold-blooded killer, who did it for money. Would you put that person behind bars? If not, what would you do with them?

You can accept that prison does serve a purpose in the above instance. Or you can suggest reeducation, by which I assume you mean (in the context of your previous remarks) psychotherapy, though I'd like to know exactly what sort of psychotherapy you have in mind, and how you would be able to tell that a serial killer was "socially fit" at the end of such a process. Or you can propose some alternative approach...

...but in any case, my point was that Russell never offered "reeducation" as a uniform solution for these crimes (if indeed he meant it seriously at all, given some of his later expressed views about social conditioning); and that your endorsement of it in cases involving the taking of life would seem to be both general and theoretical, rather than specific and practical.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
User avatar
frogus
Posts: 2682
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:54 pm
Location: Rock 'n Roll Highschool
Contact:

Post by frogus »

you're saying at the same time that solutions proposed and endorsed by people in the field for dealing with, let's say, drunk drivers who kill people--putting them behind bars for a long time--are less effective than some qualitatively nebulous "educate until they know better."


I don't claim at all that their solution is worse than mine. I claim that they have no solution at all. I believe that there are several ways to fix a car (change the fan belts, check spark plugs etc.), but I don't claim any knowledge of which one would work best, and I'm sure that some are useful, some are not, some do good, some do bad, and any number could be effective in any given case.

I do not think that throwing the car on the scrap-heap is ever, in any circumstance, going to fix it's engine. With cars, the difference is clear between a 'solution' and 'chucking it out', but in law, (real life) the meanings have become more blurred, this is where some of our confusion is I think.

I think that prison is not a comparable treatment to psychotherapy (or whatever 'constructive' method we're thinking about).
"When someone breaks the law, we shouldn't lock them up and deny them all sorts of pleasure which keep a person sane and well balanced. We should try and 'fix' them..." You clearly *do* "claim knowledge of a solution.


I do not claim knowledge of the nature of a solution, I claim knowledge of the fact that there is a solution, even if human kind does not know about it's nature yet.

I hope this clears things up my reasons for not answering your question

I know that prison does serve a purpose, but I think it is a negative and deconstructive one.
I would prefer that we don't pin too much onto the word 'psychotherapy', but I'm sure we both understand that I mean the administration of treatment to a person in order to produce positive changes in their mental cycles and habits.
Like medicine only for the brain.

ps what do you think about insanity in these cases?
Love and Hope and Sex and Dreams are Still Surviving on the Street
User avatar
fable
Posts: 30676
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
Contact:

Post by fable »

So you say prison isn't the answer, but you haven't got one? Okay, let's pull out a specially prepared Monopoly Community Chest card and see what it says:

"YOU HAVE KILLED SOMEBODY. GO TO JAIL. Go directly to jail. You do not get another chance to kill somebody, as you will be in a closely monitored environment. The family and friends of the person you killed will feel that a measure of closure has been achieved."

From which I infer that sending (let's say) a cold-blooded killer to jail achieves two goals: 1) It serves a prophylactic purpose, preventing a reoccurence of the crime by that individual. 2) It helps the family and friends and the victim, whom you've never addressed in your posts. There's a third social effect as well that is less obvious: 3) Through the media, it reinforces the convictions of citizens that they live in a lawful society which punishes crimes, and halts repeat crimes.

You've written "I claim that they have no solution at all," but these are three telling points in favor of permanent incarceration. Oddly enough, in all our discussion, you've stressed the criminal. What about the three points I've mentioned? Could you specifically address each of these?

ps what do you think about insanity in these cases?

It has to be proven, and repeatedly, by several expert witnesses. And I don't believe in letting insane killers ever out, either. The risk to the innocent and to society is too great.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
User avatar
frogus
Posts: 2682
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:54 pm
Location: Rock 'n Roll Highschool
Contact:

Post by frogus »

heya fable....
sorry I haven't been able to get on GB for a while....anyway
where were we?

ahhh not getting anywhere. of course. I think we're running into prblems because I am not accepting the axioms which you're arguments are based on, and vice versa. I think we'll have to delve deeper still to get to the bottom of this.

do you mind me taking up an interrogatory* line of questioning to try and show you the reason behind my arguments, from the bottom upwards?

It may take some time, but I can be on here every day in the (GMT) afternoon for the next week or so.
Love and Hope and Sex and Dreams are Still Surviving on the Street
User avatar
fable
Posts: 30676
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
Contact:

Post by fable »

Sure. Go for it. :)
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
User avatar
Tom
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The Hundred Acre Wood
Contact:

Post by Tom »

He he

A show down.

The old hand vs the new buck.

Get out the beer (guinness for me).

- and let the show begin :D
I didn't really bounce Eeyore. I had a cough, and I happened to be behind Eeyore, and I said "Grrrr-oppp-ptschschschz."

Tigger
User avatar
Craig
Posts: 4996
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Post by Craig »

Ok:
A man Tries to kill a pregnent woman and fails stabbing her in the belly, kill the "Unborn"(important phrase) child, he gets of with Asult and battery(and may be attempted murder) as the baby is not a person and cannot be murdered.
And far away in an alternate reality,
A man kills a non-pregnant woman and is prosicuted with murder.

I think this is a better example.
I'm Devious

This is my Gift. This is my Curse. Who am I? I'm SpiderCraig
User avatar
Yshania
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Some Girls Wander By Mistake
Contact:

Post by Yshania »

@Craig - it depends on the stage of pregnancy...this is probably not a good example to use...
Parachute for sale, like new! Never opened!
Guinness, black goes with everything.
User avatar
fable
Posts: 30676
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
Contact:

Post by fable »

Originally posted by Tom
He he

A show down.

The old hand vs the new buck.

Get out the beer (guinness for me).

- and let the show begin :D
Or not. I think Frogus and I are discussing a topic in friendly fashion, not doing a one-off of William F. Buckley at the Okay Chorale. :rolleyes: ;)
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
User avatar
Tom
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The Hundred Acre Wood
Contact:

Post by Tom »

Originally posted by craig
Ok:
A man Tries to kill a pregnent woman and fails stabbing her in the belly, kill the "Unborn"(important phrase) child, he gets of with Asult and battery(and may be attempted murder) as the baby is not a person and cannot be murdered.
And far away in an alternate reality,
A man kills a non-pregnant woman and is prosicuted with murder.

I think this is a better example.
The problem i first described is sometimes called the problem of moral luck.

What I tried to bring across was that the way our justice system deals with certain cases is prima facie wrong - or at least inconsistent.

This is because we normaly don’t punish people for things they do not have control over. So if I am taken over by an alien and forced to beat up Tony Blair I will not be punished under the law - and that also seems to be what our moral sentiments tell us.

But then it follows that the two men in my example should be punished equally. But they are not, so something is wrong with the system. That was my contention.


Surely you must agree with me!?
I didn't really bounce Eeyore. I had a cough, and I happened to be behind Eeyore, and I said "Grrrr-oppp-ptschschschz."

Tigger
User avatar
Tom
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The Hundred Acre Wood
Contact:

Post by Tom »

Originally posted by fable


Or not. I think Frogus and I are discussing a topic in friendly fashion, not doing a one-off of William F. Buckley at the Okay Chorale. :rolleyes: ;)
Ohh :confused:

but :) bring out the guinness anyway. :D
I didn't really bounce Eeyore. I had a cough, and I happened to be behind Eeyore, and I said "Grrrr-oppp-ptschschschz."

Tigger
User avatar
frogus
Posts: 2682
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:54 pm
Location: Rock 'n Roll Highschool
Contact:

Post by frogus »

crushing cigarette but beneath heel...

ok. from the bottom.

a perfect society consists of perfect individuals.
a perfect individual is one who always acts in a good way, never a bad one, agree?
Love and Hope and Sex and Dreams are Still Surviving on the Street
User avatar
Tom
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The Hundred Acre Wood
Contact:

Post by Tom »

PEONNGGG


And the first shot is fired. :) The young, tall and handsome err… frog pulled first

But it seems to have missed.
Is the experienced word slinger gonna go for an early denial of an unstable principle?

(Settles back in comfy beach chair with Guinness (Reg temp))

Let the fight begin.

All we need now is that dark-haired dusky beauty for the winner.
I didn't really bounce Eeyore. I had a cough, and I happened to be behind Eeyore, and I said "Grrrr-oppp-ptschschschz."

Tigger
User avatar
Tom
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The Hundred Acre Wood
Contact:

Post by Tom »

Hic..

Dis word fight gots to be da slowast ever - the undertake had da mesurements taken an all but he died of old age.
Plus the darkhaird dusty beuty has maried and divorsed someone else... five times.

Hic. an im out of guinnesx....
I didn't really bounce Eeyore. I had a cough, and I happened to be behind Eeyore, and I said "Grrrr-oppp-ptschschschz."

Tigger
User avatar
frogus
Posts: 2682
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:54 pm
Location: Rock 'n Roll Highschool
Contact:

Post by frogus »

not meaning to lower the tone, but I think Tom might be right....

come on fable, let's carry this thing through :)
unless you want to respectfully withdraw from the discussion (or disrespectfully :p )
Love and Hope and Sex and Dreams are Still Surviving on the Street
User avatar
C Elegans
Posts: 9935
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The space within
Contact:

Post by C Elegans »

@Frogus: I like your sig :D

To address Tom's original questions: If all other factors are equal, I don't think a person should be more heavily punished because of good or bad luck. Now, in reality it is of course very difficult to assess what is luck and not luck. IMO luck should be defined as a random element - thus, if a tired person gets behind the wheen, knows he is tired and drives slowly and very carefully, avoiding heavily trafficked routes etc, is it luck or not if he doesn't kill others? How does a court decide what is luck or not? These are problematic questions in reality, but in theory, I think the two men in your example should be equally punished regardless of outcome, and the crime they should be punished for is wrecklesss driving, risking the life of others.

@Fable and Frogus: I think there is a fundamental question that is more important than the issue of whether a criminal should be "punished" or "rehabilitated" (is this the right word?), and that question is: what makes people commit criminal acts, like murder? IMO, nobody is born defective or evil, nobody was born to become a negative element. Sure people are born with different genetic makeup like anxiety levels, aggression levels, impulse control etc, but years and years of forensic research has found no biological or genetic explanations to why some people choose a criminal career or kill another person during certain circumstances. Explanations lie elsewhere, in socioculture factors. This doesn't mean that the individual has no responsibility, of course he or she has, but let's face it: at least in Scandinavia, most people who kill other people share a common, really bad, sociocultural background. Parental abuse, bullying, school problems, etc are factors that consistently appear in the background of people who has committed violent crimes. Now, what can be done about it?

IMO, profylactic treatment, ie addressing the factors that make people become criminals, is totally underestimated in all of the Western society although many such factors are known. Why don't we do anything about it if we know how to prevent people from becoming criminals? The answer lies in the state of our politics. You don't win any elections by suggesting expensive, long term solutions that we might only see the result of in 30 or 40 years time.
Also, for all the people who have already committed crimes like murder or other violent acts, there are several good alternatives, perhaps much better than jail. Pedophilia is often claimed to be incurable - most people think pedophiles are the scum of the earth and should be locked in and the key thrown away. Whereas I share the disgust over an adult exploiting and raping children, often spoiling the kid's possibility for any kind of normal life, I would rather see a long term, permanent cure for pedophilia than simply jailing all new pedophiles. When the crime is committed, it's already too late for the victim. Pedophiles, like many violent offenders, often have a high recurrency rate. But there are treatment programs that have shown a dramamtic lowering of recurrency, in the US, a program consisting of a combination of individual aversion therapy, group therapy and social adjustment programs, showed a 90% sucesss. So why don't we use this treatment program worldwide? The study was controlled, results were compared to numerous other treatments or jail with no treatment, follow ups has been done several times years later, and the success rate is still way higher than anything else previously tried!?

Well, the program was a research project, and US authorities abandoned the project because it was too expensive. Same thing with an educational program in Sweden, where young criminals got professional training and help with social adjustment - the program was a success and recurrency rates lower than anything tried before, but it was considered too expensive. Hey, people want their tax money to go to education of children, health care, infrastructure etc - they don't want to pay a lot ot money to help somebody who raped 4-year old!

Now, we come to the issue of revenge and punishment. When horrible and cruel acts are committed, we want justice, and justice is often equal to punishment of the guilty and compensation for the victims. Justice in the form of punishment makes us feel better, but does it create a better society? Rehab is often viewed as a reward, jail is viewed as punishment. Also, there is the view that jail is the only solution to protect society from these people who hurt others.

My solution: Victims should be compensated. Offenders should be given rehabilitation that works, and we should all pay for this with tax money. Goverments and media should clearly present alternatives and results of different treatments, rather than just abandoning successful projects before people even know of their existance. Do we want a society with less pedophiles, less murderer, less violence? No, I don't think so. It's still cheaper to keep people in jail than to invest in large scale prevention and rehab. :(
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
Moderator of Planescape: Torment, Diablo I & II and Dungeon Siege forums
User avatar
frogus
Posts: 2682
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:54 pm
Location: Rock 'n Roll Highschool
Contact:

Post by frogus »

This is exactly my view. I was trying to get to the bottom of the theoretical issues of morallity and justice which underpin your argument, but I think fable has abandonned us.

Have you ever read a book about Summerhill School?
Love and Hope and Sex and Dreams are Still Surviving on the Street
User avatar
fable
Posts: 30676
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
Contact:

Post by fable »

Re: crushing cigarette but beneath heel...
Originally posted by frogus
ok. from the bottom.

a perfect society consists of perfect individuals.
a perfect individual is one who always acts in a good way, never a bad one, agree?
Philosophers use precise instruments, despite their theoretical tone. Until you can find a definition for "perfect society," "perfect individual," "good," and "bad" that nails down these concepts, the above can mean literally anything depending upon the mind and intent of the speaker.

I am not engaging in symantics, @Frogus; I seriously can't agree to something as vague as this. It could mean one thing in the mouth of a totalitarian dictatorship with pretentions to Big Brotherism, with hidden cameras and microphones; and another in the mouth of a liberatarian who thinks the "perfect society" is one whose individuals require no law save personal responsibility. To my mind, there is no such thing as perfection in the universe, save for that which includes, encompasses and transcends the universe, itself--my concept of deity. (But that gets into another discussion, altogether.)
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
User avatar
frogus
Posts: 2682
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:54 pm
Location: Rock 'n Roll Highschool
Contact:

Post by frogus »

there we go....
right, I believe that a good action is one which grants the greatest happiness to the greatest number*, and a bad action is one which forces the greatest unhappiness on the greatest number*. Do you agree with that?

*please excuse cliches

ps sorry I don't know what symantics are....tell me and I'll try to avoid them.

and now, with those definitions of good and bad actions, do you agree with my earlier statement?
Love and Hope and Sex and Dreams are Still Surviving on the Street
User avatar
fable
Posts: 30676
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
Contact:

Post by fable »

Originally posted by frogus
there we go....
right, I believe that a good action is one which grants the greatest happiness to the greatest number*, and a bad action is one which forces the greatest unhappiness on the greatest number*. Do you agree with that?
Point blank, no. An action can be good and please one person, yet harm no others; or an action can be good and displease many, because it incurs shortterm suffering (and that can be a week, or a hundred years) yet be good in the longrun for some other purpose completely unrelated to the benefits of a society or its members. An action can serve the immediate good for a large group of people, yet have a disastrous effect overall. You are not addressing, I think, the question of perception, and attaching a greater weight to numbers of people pleased, without establishing any significance for that weighting.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Post Reply