government and taxes

[der Moench]

While I have no desire to talk politics, I can't help but step in on this debate if only to say this:

@mediev, you have done a great deal of criticizing of other people's views, and yet have not actually given us your views on the nature of government. That is what this thread subject is, after all. And while I am sure that you and Lazarus could debate at great length, we now have Lazarus' ideas of government, while being none the wiser of yours.

Please feel free to enlighten us.

[Lazarus]

@All: just a few very quick points here, because I have lots of work to get done today. If necessary, I will come back next weekend and respond further.

Originally posted by HighLordDave
I think that our friend Lazarus has some valid points, and is obviously very passionate about them, yet I disagree with him on one key factor: I do not believe that unrestricted capitalism will look out for anyone other than itself.

This is a very, very interesting idea: capitalism will look out only for “itself.” But there is no such entity as capitalism – only individuals who engage in trade. In my view, if people “look out for themselves,” they do in fact make the world a better place for everyone. You may refer to my posts in the Education thread on this point (i.e. greed and selfishness).

Originally posted by HighLordDave
I also don't believe for a second that business would look out for the environment, the average citizen or anyone other than their own bottom line without regulatory agencies looking over their shoulders.

I disagree. Why is it any more likely that a corporation will trash the environment for a quick buck, than it is that they will act with a long-term outlook? Again, this gets into your general view of man: can we think? Can we act rationally? If you believe that we are capable of directing our own lives, then capitalism is the only proper system of dealing with one another. If, on the other hand, you believe men to be generally corrupt and dangerous, then no amount of government will save us from the predations of such people.

Originally posted by HighLordDave
I must say that our friend Shadow Sandrock hit the nail on the head with the flat tax.

I can say this in favor of the flat tax: it does indeed put aside the idea that people who are successful should pay more in taxes. The idea that the successful should be punished with a 60% tax rate, while the more moderate earners should get away at 30% is an exceedingly dangerous one. While I disagree with taxes of any kind, I would certainly like to see the flat tax discussed more widely if only as an indication that people reject the idea behind the “progressive” tax.

@mediev: perhaps you and I have a definitional problem here. While I have been using the term “democracy” as an umbrella word, I think you may be using it in a more narrow sense. I think some of your argument comes from Madison’s Federalist #10 (?), where Madison explains why a “democracy” would be an inappropriate system of government. I understand his point, and his assertion that a more realistic system would be that of a republic. I apologize for any confusion I may have engendered with the use of the term “democracy.” I have indeed used it loosely, and intended it (as I say) as an umbrella term, meant to include a republican form of government.

However, I must agree with brother monk when he asks that you now explain what you believe to be a fair system of government.

[HighLordDave]

Originally posted by Lazarus
I disagree. Why is it any more likely that a corporation will trash the environment for a quick buck, than it is that they will act with a long-term outlook? Again, this gets into your general view of man: can we think? Can we act rationally? If you believe that we are capable of directing our own lives, then capitalism is the only proper system of dealing with one another.

We have seen several instances in the recent past of businesses trashing the environment or overextending itself in the short run without regard to its long-term consequences. We see it most often in agricultural applications: commercial fishing, whaling, fur hunting, shark fins, etc. Consequently we often see species hunted to extinction or near-extinction (saved only by the Endangered Species Act) or local ecologies destroyed.

Five nations border the Caspian Sea: Russia, Azerbaijan, Iran, Turkmenistan and Kazakstan. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, various capitalist enterprises, some state-sponsored and some not, have gone into the region chasing different objectives. Some are fishing beluga caviar, some are looking for oil, some are other commercial fishing operations. Almost without exception, the enterprises going on in the Caspian Sea have no concern for the long-term viability of an industry; they are there to reap whatever resources they can gather, then they will move on.

Domestically, we have seen similar activities throughout Appalachia in the coal industry; strip mines dot the hills of Pennsylvania, West Virginia and Kentucky where companies have come through without a care about their operations' impact on the environment or the local populace. Even today with federal regulation, there are coal companies who are more willing to pay fines rather than find ways of disposing of their sludge other than dumping it in local waterways. Imagine how bad it would be without the EPA.

I think that your ideas are predicated on the basic notion that people are basically good. That is, an employer will treat their employees well because strong, motivated, and well-paid employees make hard-working and productive employees. Unfortunately, I think that humanity has a history of people not treating each other well and that left alone, the powerful would prefer to advance themselves and break the backs of those "beneath them" rather than try to lift everyone up and do things which would make the world a better place.

[fable]

@Porcu, I've deleted your post. It contributed nothing informational, and was just a flame at Lazarus. Please read the forum rules, as posted at http://www.gamebanshee.com/sitefeatures/forumrules.php

If you have any concerns about having your post pulled, feel free to email the website owner, Buck. Otherwise, if you want to keep posting here, you'll follow those rules. Thanks.

[Vivien]

High Lord Dave,

I was going to jump in and start arguing, but you've touched the majority of my concerns. I also think that if we look at what businesses HAVE done and are currently doing in the form of sweat shops and use of child labor in Mexico etc..., we cannot assume that they will do so much better with no regulation.

Just an appreciation.

Viv