Dualing Imoen

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Sat Sep 29, 2001 7:10 am

With TotSC installed, how far should I take Imoen's thief talent before dualling her to Mage?

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Sat Sep 29, 2001 8:49 am

You need a good thief to get through Durlag's tower, so don't dual her too soon... if at all. You'll want a lvl 5 or 6 thief if I remember correctly.

Magior · Post by **Magior** » Sat Sep 29, 2001 9:09 am

With the TotSC exp cap she can reach either 6th/9th or 7th/8th levels if thief and mage (Illusionist) respectively. I'd go for the 6/9 to get 5th level spells

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sat Sep 29, 2001 9:17 am

Why Duel her at all, though? I've currently got her at level 6, but I don't see any reason to Duel her.

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Sat Sep 29, 2001 10:40 am

I'll take her to level 5 then. If I wait any longer, she'll be able to do Durlags tower alright, but most of the rest of the games traps will have been and gone.

I chose level 4 last time, and it felt a little too early (first time I'd played with the TotSC cap).

As for why I would dual Immy. Because her Int was made for being a Mage. It's such a waste to keep her as a pure thief, she doesn't have the strength to make it worth while.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Sep 29, 2001 11:49 am

Why dual Immy? Because she's the best damn Mage in the game!

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Sat Sep 29, 2001 12:54 pm

Damn! I've been putting up with Edwin's lousy personality the entire game 'cause everyone says he's the best mage and now you're telling me that ain't so??

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sat Sep 29, 2001 9:57 pm

Originally posted by Xyx:
Why dual Immy? Because she's the best damn Mage in the game!

Hmm...I might try that sometime, but I like Dynaheir. With her Robe of the Good Archmagi, Cloak of Displacement, Necklace of Protection +1, Mirrored Image spell, and Girdle of Bluntness; she rarely dies. She kicks @$$ with her Magic Missiles, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt.

I don't use Edwin purely because he is a Red Wizard.

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 12:01 am

Of course, Imoen is not bad at all in BGII... her thieving/maging abilities are a real kick-heinie combination.
Except in ToB, her lvl7 thiefskills weren't always enough.
Xian is the mage I like best in BG1 though; maybe his abilities aren't the best but I love his soundset. "We're all doohoomed..."

Magior · Post by **Magior** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 12:19 am

On the mages in the game. Only 3 stats matter: Int, Dex and Con. No one wants their mages to die in melee, so Str is useless.

Mages in the game:

Xzar: Regular Int (among mages), good Dex (-2 AC) and sucky Con. Hit points are a life-saver and he doesn't got any. 2.5/level -> 24 HP when 9th level. Good kit (Necromancer), doesn't lose any good spells. If you wan't to roleplay an Evil char, his superb partner justifies his presence. If not, just doesn't kick it.

Xan: Game-wise, the exact same stats as Xzar, but has a worse kit (Enchanter) losing fireballs and magic missiles. Has the superb Moonblade but can't hit a thing with it and dies on 2 enemy hits if put to melee. IMHO, sucks.

Dynaheir: Regular int, bad dex and maxed out Con (for mages). AC doesn't matter as mages rarely get hit by anyhing and optimally, can be worked around (Gauntlets of Dexterity). The Con bonus of 2 extra HP/level can save your life from occasonal enemy lightning botls and traps. On the down side, she has the single worst mage kit in the game (Invoker). Loses the two schools which contain the best spells in the game: Enhantment/Charm and Conjuration/Summoning. Sleep, Dire Charm, Greater Malison, all the owerpowered monster-summoning spells in the game and ultimately, my number 1 favorite spell, Chaos (any group of enemies will kill each other) are unavailable to her. Will someone please explain to me why many people think her as the best mage in the game while she clearly seems to be the opposite?

Edwin: Stats-wise, the same as Dynaheir, only smarter. The only useful spell he loses is Identify. The best pure mage-type in the game. Should I also mention that he gets an extra spell/level from his unremovable amulet.

Imoen: She has both Dex and Con maxed and a respectable Int for a mage. She can dual to the best mage kit available: The Illusionist. She can obtain levels 6/9 if dualled to mage. A 6th level thief with the Eagle Bow and 18 dex can actually hit things and shoot 2 times a round unlike any of the pure mages. I think that more than makes up for Edwin's extra spell/level.

One mage is all (usually more than) you ever need and with Imoen, you get a thief as well. I'd reccomend taking Coran (or if evil, Montaron) as your other thief and rest of the party fighter-types. IMO, the Ultimate party consists of Immy, Coran, Kivan, Shar-Teel, Minsc and a Dwarven Fighter/Cleric (PC).

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 1:00 am

Originally posted by tram:
Xzar: Regular Int (among mages), good Dex (-2 AC) and sucky Con. Hit points are a life-saver and he doesn't got any. 2.5/level -> 24 HP when 9th level. Good kit (Necromancer), doesn't lose any good spells. If you wan't to roleplay an Evil char, his superb partner justifies his presence. If not, just doesn't kick it.

I got sick of him getting killed, so I dumped his body in the middle of the road in Nashkel. I make sure to walk over it everytime I go through there.

Originally posted by tram:
Xan: Game-wise, the exact same stats as Xzar, but has a worse kit (Enchanter) losing fireballs and magic missiles. Has the superb Moonblade but can't hit a thing with it and dies on 2 enemy hits if put to melee. IMHO, sucks.

Never found/tried him. I'm still carrying his Moonblade around, though.

Originally posted by tram:
Dynaheir: Regular int, bad dex and maxed out Con (for mages). AC doesn't matter as mages rarely get hit by anyhing and optimally, can be worked around (Gauntlets of Dexterity). The Con bonus of 2 extra HP/level can save your life from occasonal enemy lightning botls and traps. On the down side, she has the single worst mage kit in the game (Invoker). Loses the two schools which contain the best spells in the game: Enhantment/Charm and Conjuration/Summoning. Sleep, Dire Charm, Greater Malison, all the owerpowered monster-summoning spells in the game and ultimately, my number 1 favorite spell, Chaos (any group of enemies will kill each other) are unavailable to her. Will someone please explain to me why many people think her as the best mage in the game while she clearly seems to be the opposite?

I've got Dynaheir wearing the Gauntlets of Dexterity and the items I mentioned previously. There were a couple of spells I wanted her to learn that she can't, but they're not that big a deal to me. One was Armor, though that spell doesn't provide her any help now. Another was Melf's Acid Arrow, but I don't consider it important. I would like the Monster Summoning Spells, but they're not that important to me. Viconia has Animate Dead and is at level 6. She has that spell memorized x3, so that's a potential 18 undead minions fighting for you. Monster Summoning is probably better, but it's not something I consider all that important. The spells Dynaheir currently has memorized are Magic Missile, Web, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Lightning Bolt, and Fireball.

Originally posted by tram:
Edwin: Stats-wise, the same as Dynaheir, only smarter. The only useful spell he loses is Identify. The best pure mage-type in the game. Should I also mention that he gets an extra spell/level from his unremovable amulet.

I must admit that Edwin does sound like a very good mage, but I just don't like Red Wizards and I choose based on character as well as ability.

Originally posted by tram:
Imoen: She has both Dex and Con maxed and a respectable Int for a mage. She can dual to the best mage kit available: The Illusionist. She can obtain levels 6/9 if dualled to mage. A 6th level thief with the Eagle Bow and 18 dex can actually hit things and shoot 2 times a round unlike any of the pure mages. I think that more than makes up for Edwin's extra spell/level.

I'll definitely try this in my next game of BG, after I finish my current one.

Originally posted by tram:
One mage is all (usually more than) you ever need and with Imoen, you get a thief as well. I'd reccomend taking Coran (or if evil, Montaron) as your other thief and rest of the party fighter-types. IMO, the Ultimate party consists of Immy, Coran, Kivan, Shar-Teel, Minsc and a Dwarven Fighter/Cleric (PC).

When I first started BG, I didn't like mages for two reasons. 1.) I had played IWD before this and hated using mages in it. 2.) The first mage you get in BG isn't very good.

My party is currently all female, except for Minsc. I have Minsc, Elysia Moonstar(PC, Half-Elven Ranger), Coran, Imoen(pure Thief), Viconia, and Dynaheir.

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 4:58 am

Except in ToB, her lvl7 thiefskills weren't always enough.

Did you have Kevin Dorners fixpack? Without it, Imoen actually only has level 6 thief skills. Having played through BG2 and ToB, I can say that level 7 thief skills are easily enough. Imoen is the perfect character to bring along.

Will someone please explain to me why many people think her as the best mage in the game while she clearly seems to be the opposite?

Because she's good, and most people play good, and thus she's the only mage in the game they can pick up (most people probably never even think about dualling Imoen). Oh, there is Xan, but he is DIRE!

Another reason is that she comes with some good spells already in her book (Xan doesn't, he comes with some real crap).

She also comes with Minsc, who seems to be popular. Don't know why, I thought he was rather weak in BG. Rangers sucked in BG.

Never found/tried him. I'm still carrying his Moonblade around, though.

How could you miss him? When you get to the last level of the Nashkel mines you go to the south cave to kick the bad guys butt. Xan is sitting in the next cave up (near the back).

On the mages in the game. Only 3 stats matter: Int, Dex and Con. No one wants their mages to die in melee, so Str is useless.

I'd say Wisdom and not Int is what matters. Wisdom gives you extra spells, where as all the abilities of Int can be simulated by swigging down an Int potion.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 8:33 am

Originally posted by Quitch:
She also comes with Minsc, who seems to be popular. Don't know why, I thought he was rather weak in BG. Rangers sucked in BG.

I, personally, like Rangers. That's why my PC is a Ranger, which has allowed me to have wolves fight alongside me against their pack; and I've even negated a Dire Charm spell that was cast on Minsc by a Siren by having my PC cast Charm Animal on him.

Originally posted by Quitch:
Never found/tried him. I'm still carrying his Moonblade around, though.

How could you miss him? When you get to the last level of the Nashkel mines you go to the south cave to kick the bad guys butt. Xan is sitting in the next cave up (near the back).

I never went past where Mulahey is. By the time I finished killing Mulahey, ¼th my team was dead and the rest was loaded down with the dead party member's items and all the loot from Mulahey. I've been meaning to go back in there, I just haven't gotten around to it.

Originally posted by Quitch:
On the mages in the game. Only 3 stats matter: Int, Dex and Con. No one wants their mages to die in melee, so Str is useless.

I'd say Wisdom and not Int is what matters. Wisdom gives you extra spells, where as all the abilities of Int can be simulated by swigging down an Int potion.

Wisdom gives you extra spells? Could you explain exactly what you mean?

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 9:57 am

I, personally, like Rangers. That's why my PC is a Ranger, which has allowed me to have wolves fight alongside me against their pack; and I've even negated a Dire Charm spell that was cast on Minsc by a Siren by having my PC cast Charm Animal on him

I too played as a Ranger, I've always played as one

Problem was they were basically lesser fighters with talents that didn't compensate. Hide in Shadows was better left to thieves while you got yourself some real armour. You had to charm animals close up, leaving yourself awfully exposed if it went wrong. If it didn't leave you exposed when it went wrong, you didn't need the animal.

On the other hand, when you get into BG2 you have a comftable number of priest spells, which makes Rangers much more satisfying to play

Wisdom gives you extra spells? Could you explain exactly what you mean?

You can ignore that, that's my poor mind getting Mages and Priests mixed up again

Magior · Post by **Magior** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 10:35 am

Originally posted by Quitch:


She also comes with Minsc, who seems to be popular. Don't know why, I thought he was rather weak in BG. Rangers sucked in BG.

I have to disagree here. Minsc wasn't much worse than Shar in melee and had proficiencies in long bow. The number three bowman and number two swordsman in the game certainly makes my party, remembering how powerful ranged weapons were in BG1....

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 11:54 am

I prefered Khalid myself. Then again, I always took Minsc and Khalid

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 4:04 pm

Originally posted by Coot:
Damn! I've been putting up with Edwin's lousy personality the entire game 'cause everyone says he's the best mage and now you're telling me that ain't so??

In Stoneskin-less BG1, Edwin has to jump through too much hoops to stay alive, IMO. Immy has great Dex and good use besides spellcasting (which isn't all that in BG1).

I suppose that if you give Edwin the Gauntlets of Dexterity and load him up on Mirror Images, he becomes quite interesting, though.

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
I like Dynaheir. With her Robe of the Good Archmagi, Cloak of Displacement, Necklace of Protection +1, Mirrored Image spell, and Girdle of Bluntness; she rarely dies.

Who wouldn't, with that kind of equipment?

Originally posted by Coot:
Xan is the mage I like best in BG1 though; maybe his abilities aren't the best but I love his soundset. "We're all doohoomed..."

Xan is the coolest!

Originally posted by tram:
Xan: Game-wise, the exact same stats as Xzar, but has a worse kit (Enchanter) losing fireballs and magic missiles. Has the superb Moonblade but can't hit a thing with it and dies on 2 enemy hits if put to melee. IMHO, sucks.

I never liked Fireballs much... Too much "accidents" happened. I found I used Xan's Flame Arrows much more often than Dynaheir's Fireballs.

The Moonblade is an added bonus. Good for an AC bonus against the occasional missile.

Originally posted by tram:
Dynaheir: Will someone please explain to me why many people think her as the best mage in the game while she clearly seems to be the opposite?

Because she's an Invoker and Fireballs are so much more useful in PnP. Unfortunately, being an Invoker in BG doesn't mean being able to throw more Fireballs than any other, but just means losing out on more good spells...

Originally posted by Quitch:
She (Dynaheir) also comes with Minsc, who seems to be popular. Don't know why, I thought he was rather weak in BG. Rangers sucked in BG.

Oh, yes, Minsc.

I thought he was the best tank in BG1, actually. Strength like his gives bonuses that are nearly impossible to match with extra weapon specialization.

At least, so I thought, but then I never knew the exact benefits of Grand Mastery when I played through BG1...

For the record: I think Minsc really sucks in BG2...

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Tue Oct 02, 2001 1:40 pm

In BG2 Minsc's strength isn't the asset it was in BG1, because in BG2 you've got lots of ways to boost strength. Also, his priest spells are too few and weak to make a difference.
In BG1 he's a pretty tough ranger though. The only better ranger I know of is Cordell.

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Tue Oct 02, 2001 2:24 pm

Khalid got more hitpoints than Minsc. I thought this was a lot more useful, as boosting strength in the Baldur's Gate series has never been a problem.

I like Edwin in BG2, he's rather funny and sarcastic. I did take him for a period in BG, but he's nothing like the BG2 Edwin, without his continually sniping, he simply seems bitter, mean, and very annoying.

I never liked Fireballs much... Too much "accidents" happened. I found I used Xan's Flame Arrows much more often than Dynaheir's Fireballs.

With the low hitpoints of most that you met, combined with the slower movement speeds, I found Fireballs by far the best spell in Baldur's Gate. The fact that arrows were the best choice for attack only strengthened the position of Fireball, since you really didn't need to be closing with the enemy. There is also the matter of the minimal number of spell slots provided in BG, and the fact that you often met swarms. Fireball with its ability to harm multiple enemies at once is an ideal spell for such a game.

Towards the end of the game, you could have archers using arrows of detonation, combined with Mages tossing in Fireballs. Nothing in the game could beat this, except Sarevok.....and possibly the Kobolds in the Firewine Ruins, damn respawning Kobold Commandos and tight corridors

The Iron Throne six fell without so much as scratching me when they met with this power.

Immy has great Dex and good use besides spellcasting (which isn't all that in BG1).

A lot of people advocate the use of a single Mage in BG, myself I prefer to start out with one (Dynaheir being my preference, she gets on with everyone), then dualling Imoen later as magic becomes more powerful (and the greater XP helps her gain those spells quickly).

To be honest though, Fighters are the most powerful entity even in BG2. How many people found that Breach was their most useful spell?

EDIT: Fix quotes

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Quitch ]

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 10:37 am

Originally posted by Quitch:
Fighters are the most powerful entity even in BG2. How many people found that Breach was their most useful spell?

Soloed the game with a Berserker/Mage, killing 90% of my opponents with brainless melee damage. Had a Breach memorized at all times, and used it exactly once...