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Why did Tolkein write his books?

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at99
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Why did Tolkein write his books?

Post by at99 »

Why did Tolkein write his books. What was the reason. To make money, create a good story etc

I have posted this question elsewhere but I am not getting any answers.(but people have politely tried)

I know that Tolkein did not create the story because 'Britain had no mythology' since the celtic people had a lot.

England is not Britain was another thing people were confused about elsewhere.

It is an interesting question on why he wrote the books in the first place (I dont know why?)

;)
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Post by humanflyz »

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!

I just typed up a whole letter that Tolkien wrote that helps to answer the question. But my ISP disconnected and the whole post is lost!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I am too tired now to retype it, at99, go to your library or search around the net for the letter Tolkien wrote to Milton Waldman. It is the preface of the Silmarillion published by Houghton Mifflin, second edition.
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Post by at99 »

I guess people who have responded to me on this topic DONT read me properly. And after getting this bit of info it proves a point.

England is not Britain!! (Americans dont seem to clear on this point)

It seems as though 'as I suspected' that tolkein did not like the fact that English mythology did not exist. He perceived a weakness in the English culture as other countries in Britain have. Though it is a very good rational culture.


"
His heart told him to create what was most important to him: a ‘new mythology’ for England. Tolkien’s deep love for the language, the people, the land, and all things English, would inspire his work. He perceived there was a vacuum in the history of England, that there were no myths the land could call her own. Here he explains his conviction in that famously long letter to Milton Waldman (No. 131):

I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I had sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands.... I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, .... which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country
"


If you would like me to explain this further Humanfly,viv or thorin just let me know!!

Sorry to sound so self-righteous but ...

Get it now!!!

:) :)
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Post by dragon wench »

There is also a body of evidence that suggests Tolkien, like numerous other writers, was lashing out against the effects of the Industrial Revolution. The pastoral idyll represented by the Shire certainly supports this view, and as somebody else pointed out in another thread, anything mechanized in LOTR is depicted as intrinsically evil....
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Post by at99 »

Originally posted by dragon wench:
<STRONG>There is also a body of evidence that suggests Tolkien, like numerous other writers, was lashing out against the effects of the Industrial Revolution. The pastoral idyll represented by the Shire certainly supports this view, and as somebody else pointed out in another thread, anything mechanized in LOTR is depicted as intrinsically evil....</STRONG>
Your point is ...

Why is the explanation I found not good enough ?
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Post by Sailor Saturn »

Originally posted by dragon wench:
<STRONG>There is also a body of evidence that suggests Tolkien, like numerous other writers, was lashing out against the effects of the Industrial Revolution. The pastoral idyll represented by the Shire certainly supports this view, and as somebody else pointed out in another thread, anything mechanized in LOTR is depicted as intrinsically evil....</STRONG>
Except that would indicate allegorical writing, which Tolkien insisted is not what his stories were.

I read somewhere about why he wrote The Hobbit. He was grading exams when he came across a blank peice of paper. He wrote down on the paper something like "There once was a Hobbit who lived in a whole in the ground."(or something like that, I'm writing this from memory). Since he had no idea what a hobbit was, he wrote an entire book to answer his own question.
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Post by at99 »

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>Except that would indicate allegorical writing, which Tolkien insisted is not what his stories were.

I read somewhere about why he wrote The Hobbit. He was grading exams when he came across a blank peice of paper. He wrote down on the paper something like "There once was a Hobbit who lived in a whole in the ground."(or something like that, I'm writing this from memory). Since he had no idea what a hobbit was, he wrote an entire book to answer his own question.</STRONG>
The deeper meaning to why he did these things in the first place was explained.
This is the thing I was getting at. The motivation factor.

Unless you disagree with my explanation.

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: at99 ]
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Post by dragon wench »

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>Except that would indicate allegorical writing, which Tolkien insisted is not what his stories were.

I read somewhere about why he wrote The Hobbit. He was grading exams when he came across a blank peice of paper. He wrote down on the paper something like "There once was a Hobbit who lived in a whole in the ground."(or something like that, I'm writing this from memory). Since he had no idea what a hobbit was, he wrote an entire book to answer his own question.</STRONG>
*shrug* Maybe he wasn't being intentionally allegorical, but the desire to return to a more pastoral universe is deeply embedded in the psyche of much English literature. It remains entirely possible that Tolkien was influenced, despite himself, by the literary traditions of his culture.

Often, when people are motivated to write (or engage in any creative activity) they are stirred by something deep and inexplicable that lurks within the soul....

Why do we do anything? :)
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Post by GandalfgalTTV »

IIRC

He created a language, The simarilion was written to provide background info, history and people for the language.

His essay on fairy tales published by his son explaines quite a lot and provides a good read.

@DW That's partially true, he hated the mass-production of the tools of destruction. In the essay about fairy tales, he forgets what it is he's writing about a couple of times and takes the reader on detours that tell a lot about the man.
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Post by GandalfgalTTV »

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>Except that would indicate allegorical writing, which Tolkien insisted is not what his stories were.</STRONG>
No it does not, at three years old he moved too Sarehole, on the south-eastern edge of Birmingham. In the LOTR hobbiton.

He said on nummerous occasions that how he depicted things where influenced by his experiences in life.

How Mordor was depicted a destroyed land mass-producing orcs, and corrupting man. There is a very obvious link with the Industrial Revolution and its consequences.

I'm not explaining this very well.
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Post by dragon wench »

Originally posted by at99:
<STRONG>Your point is ...

Why is the explanation I found not good enough ?</STRONG>

*sigh* I wasn't suggesting it wasn't "good enough," I was merely offering an additional interpretation. When you post topics like this you should anticipate a variety of responses.
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Post by at99 »

Originally posted by dragon wench:
<STRONG>
*sigh* I wasn't suggesting it wasn't "good enough," I was merely offering an additional interpretation. When you post topics like this you should anticipate a variety of responses.</STRONG>
I do expect a variety of interpretations. Fair enough. But what is your intent,... yours is OK but we need another? What do you mean.

Lashing out at the industrial revolution is one thing but we come back to 'why' again, why do it this way? (see previous explanation)

Why was not my explanation seen as the main one. I got the thing from the man himself.
Is it because the truth is a bit disturbing for some.

It seems we are watering down the explanation here to try to be more polite rather than honest!!
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Post by Yshania »

*sigh* @at99 - how often are we going to come back to your rant that England has no history or mythology to call it's own? This is getting tiresome, and backing this particular question up with your own interpretation of a man's quote does not make your answer the only one...
I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I had sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands.... I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, .... which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country
I paid particular attention to where he said 'not of the quality that I had sought' Here he is not denying that we had any stories...just that they were not what he was looking for...and what was available was perhaps - to him - somewhat fragmented - this is my interpretation of where he discusses ingredients and making a body of connected legend...

And as to the industrial revolution being a contributing factor, well why not? Do you not consider his books escapist? They are an adult fairy tale, a place to lose yourself...
Lashing out at the industrial revolution is one thing but we come back to 'why' again, why do it this way? (see previous explanation)
Because he was a writer? Maybe if he was a painter he may have produced Constable style masterpieces...instead of the Haywain we have The Shire...
Why was not my explanation seen as the main one. I got the thing from the man himself.

Is it because the truth is a bit disturbing for some.
erm...because you were asking for a discussion, that normally entails others giving an opinion...

What is the truth in your opinion? *awaits to be disturbed but guesses the answer anyway*
It seems we are watering down the explanation here to try to be more polite rather than honest!!
So what you are waiting for someone else to say is that if it was not for Tolkien, England would have no mythology? Why does it matter? And why should this be the only reason the man put pen to paper?

What are your issues with England? that you should keep returning to your insistance that it has no originality?

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Yshania ]
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Post by Dottie »

Thanks Ysh, you saved me the trouble :)
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Post by Yshania »

Slightly off topic, but relating to English Mythology :rolleyes: and the comment in the other thread re King Arthur...

Taken from [url="http://www.britannia.com/history/h12.html"]King Arthur[/url]
Arthur, it seems, is claimed as the King of nearly every Celtic Kingdom known. The 6th century certainly saw many men named Arthur born into the Celtic Royal families of Britain but, despite attempts to identify the great man himself amongst them, there can be little doubt that most of these people were only named in his honour. Princes with other names are also sometimes identified with "Arthwyr" which is thought by some to be a title similar to Vortigern.

Breton King

Geoffrey of Monmouth recorded Arthur as a High-King of Britain. He was the son of his predecessor, Uther Pendragon and nephew of King Ambrosius. As a descendant of High-King Eudaf Hen's nephew, Conan Meriadoc, Arthur's grandfather, had crossed the Channel from Brittany and established the dynasty at the beginning of the 5th century. The Breton King Aldrien had been asked to rescue Britain from the turmoil in which it found itself after the Roman administration had departed. He sent his brother, Constantine, to help. Constantine appears to have been the historical self-proclaimed British Emperor who took the last Roman troops from Britain in a vain attempt to assert his claims on the Continent in 407. Chronologically speaking, it is just possible he was King Arthur's grandfather. Arthur's Breton Ancestry was recorded by Gallet.

Riothamus the King

Geoffrey Ashe argues that King Arthur was an historical King in Brittany known to history as Riothamus, a title meaning "Greatest-King". His army is recorded as having crossed the channel to fight the Visigoths in the Loire Valley in 468. Betrayed by the Prefect of Gaul, he later disappeared from history. Ashe does not discuss Riothamus' ancestry. He, in fact, appears quite prominently in the pedigree of the Kings of Domnonée, dispite attempts to equate him with a Prince of Cornouaille named Iaun Reith. Riothamus was probably exiled to Britain during one of the many civil wars that plagued Brittany. He later returned in triumph to reclaim his inheritance, but was later killed in an attempt to expel Germanic invaders. The main trouble with this Arthurian identification is that it pushes King Arthur back fifty years from his traditional period at the beginning of the sixth century (See Ashe 1985).

Dumnonian King

Welsh tradition also sees Arthur as High-King of Britain but tends to follow the genealogies laid down in the Mostyn MS117 and the Bonedd yr Arwr. These show Arthur as grandson of Constantine but, this time, he is Constantine Corneu, the King of Dumnonia. Traditional Arthurian legend records three Kings of Dumnonia during Arthur's reign: Constantine's son, Erbin; grandson, Gereint and great grandson, Cado. Nowhere is there any indication that these three were closely related to Arthur, nor that he had any claim on the Dumnonian Kingdom. Nor is their any explanation as to why a Dumnonian prince would have been raised to the High-Kingship of Britain. Arthur's connection with this area of Britain is purely due to his supposedly being conceived at Tintagel, the residence of his mother's first husband, and buried at Glastonbury, the most ancient Christian site in the country.

Cumbrian King

The Clan Campbell trace their tribal pedigree back to one Arthur ic Uibar: the Arthur son of Uther of tradition. Norma Lorre Goodrich uses this fact to argue that Arthur was a "Man of the North". This idea was first proposed by the Victorian Antiquary, W.F.Skene, and there is some evidence to recommend it, especially the possible northern location of Nennius' twelve battles. Goodrich places Arthur's Court at Carlisle. As the capital of the Northern British Kingdom of Rheged, this seems an unlikely home for Arthur, who was not of this dynasty. Prof. Goodrich relies heavily on late medieval literary sources and draws imaginative conclusions. (See Goodrich 1986 & Skene 1868).

Pennine King

There was a Northern British King named Arthwys who lived in the previous generation to the traditional Arthur. He was of the line of Coel Hen (the Old) and probably ruled over a large Kingdom in the Pennines. Many of Nennius' Arthurian Battles are often said to have taken place in the Northern Britain. These and other northern stories associated with the King Arthur may, in reality, have been relating the achievements of this near contemporary monarch.

Elmet King

Another Northern British Arthwys was the son of Masgwid Gloff, probably a King of the Elmet region of modern West Yorkshire. Nothing is known of this Prince who was exactly contemporary with the real King's traditional period. Though it is unlikely that he held his own kingdom, his exploits may have contributed to King Arthur's story.

Scottish King

The Scots, though fresh from Ireland, also used the name Arthur for a Royal Prince. Artur, the son of King Aidan of Dalriada, was probably born in the 550s. David F. Carroll has recently argued that this man was the real Arthur, ruling Manau Gododdin from Camelon (alias Camelot) in Stirlingshire. Details can be found on the author's web site. (Carroll 1996)

Powysian King

Graham Phillips and Martin Keatman identify Arthur as Owain Ddantwyn (White-Tooth), a late 5th century Prince of the House of Cunedda (more specifically of Gwynedd). Their arguments, however, are wholly unconvincing, and contain many unresolved discrepancies. Owain's son, Cuneglasus (known from Welsh pedigrees as Cynlas) was among the five Celtic Kings condemned in the writings of Gildas. Through a misinterpretation of this account, Keatman & Phillips imply that Cuneglasus was the son of one Arth, ie. Arthur. They further claim that he, and therefore his father, Owain, before him, must have ruled Powys, as this is the only Kingdom un-reconciled with Gildas' Kings. However, Cynlas lived at Din Arth in Rhos. He was not the son of Arth. In traditional Welsh manner the Kingdom of Gwynedd had been divided between his father, Owain, who received Eastern Gwynedd (ie. Rhos) and his uncle, Cadwallon Lawhir (Long-Hand) who took the major Western portion. During this period, Cyngen Glodrydd (the Renowned) was ruling Powys. He was probably the Aurelius Caninus mentioned by Gildas. (See Phillips & Keatman 1992).

Rhos King

A much simpler and thoroughly more convincing thesis from Mark Devere Davies suggests that Arthur may have been Cuneglasus himself. I can do no better than recommend you to the author's website.

Dyfed King

A King Arthwyr ruled in Dyfed in the late 6th century. He was the son of King Pedr ap Cyngar, but little else is known of him. Though he was probably merely named after the great man, it is possible that some of his accomplishments may have become attached to the traditional legend.

Glamorgan King

Baram Blackett & Alan Wilson have theorised that the legendary King Arthur was an amalgam of two historical characters: Anwn (alias Arthun), the British King who conquered Greece and Athrwys (alias Arthwys) the King of Glywyssing and Gwent. Arthun was a son of the British Emperor Magnus Maximus, who lived in the late 4th century. He is better known as Anwn (alias Dynod) and his title of King of Greece is generally thought to be a misreading of his Latin name, Antonius Gregorius. He actually ruled much of South Wales. Arthwys of Glwyssing & Gwent is widely accepted as a seventh century King who lived in South-East Wales. His home in the traditional Arthurian region around Caerleon is part of this man's attraction. Blackett & Wilson argue, not unconvincingly, that he really lived in the early 6th century and that his father, King Meurig was called "Uther Pendragon", a title meaning Wonderful Commander. They also make the important assertion that Arthur lived, not in Cerniw (ie. Cornwall), but in Cernyw (ie. Glywyssing). (See Blackett & Wilson 1980).

St. Arthmael the King

Like Blackett & Wilson, Chris Barber & David Pykitt identify the King Arthur with King Athrwys of Glywyssing & Gwent. However, here the similarity stops, for there are important differences in the identification of people, places and events. Their major addition is the supposition that after Camlann, Arthur/Athrwys abdicated and retired to Brittany where he became an important evangeliser. He was known as St. Armel (or Arthmael) and his shrine can still be seen at St.Armel-des-Boschaux. Their ideas have much to commend them and make compelling reading. (See Barber & Pykitt 1993).

Roman King

It has been suggested, many times over the years, that King Arthur may have been a descendant of one Lucius Artorius Castus: a theme most recently taken up by P.J.F. Turner. Castus was an historical 2nd century Dalmatian general stationed in Britain who commanded the Roman auxiliary troops, known as Sarmations, on an expedition to crush an uprising in Armorica. It is highly unlikely that the two had any connection with each other. (See Turner 1993).
Please note that Cumbria, the Pennines and Elmet are areas of England...as is Cornwall which has rich Celtic ancestry...
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Post by thantor3 »

@Ysh: Nicely done... :)
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Post by Vivien »

I do have one more thing to add :)

Ysh and I were discussing Stone henge and the other odd stone setups all around England. I think they show that there was a unique culture there in antiquity. Now, many have theory's as to their cultural significance, stuff with the Druids, stuff about Science, how the Atlantians built them. I have developed my OWN theory from my knowledge of the English people on SYM ;)

1) The small stone set ups were for sacrificing young maidens upon, especially red heads. Don't ask me how I know this, I just do ;)

2) Stone Henge was build specifically so that the English could all get together and use the stone amplifying effect to teach themselves to talk funny. Though the U.S. was not even around at that point, they had a clear mission towards confusing said people, and worked on it daily. ;)

Also, as a side note, just look at the Welsh for unique mythology. ;) *Winks at Sleep* I hear they set milk and other treats out for the 'little people' when they're not hiding from them outright. ;)

As a side note, Yshania, your posts show that you know much more about true English History than I ever will, now Myths on the other hand (making up myths counts, right?) ;) :D
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Post by dragon wench »

@Viv,
ROFLMAO!!!!!
:D :) :D
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Post by Yshania »

ROFLMAO!! :D :D
1) The small stone set ups were for sacrificing young maidens upon, especially red heads. Don't ask me how I know this, I just do
Wishful thinking!! :D ;)
2) Stone Henge was build specifically so that the English could all get together and use the stone amplifying effect to teach themselves to talk funny. Though the U.S. was not even around at that point, they had a clear mission towards confusing said people, and worked on it daily.
LOL!! and in the poorer north, we could not afford the larger stones - so we had to contend with smaller set ups, less accoustics, and taking turns (in smaller circle) resulting in a wider variety of strange and wonderful dialects :D ;)
Also, as a side note, just look at the Welsh for unique mythology. *Winks at Sleep* I hear they set milk and other treats out for the 'little people' when they're not hiding from them outright.
Actually, when I was growing up, we did the same ;) I am not Welsh either :eek: these little people were Brownies, who used to clean your house and mend your clothes if you fed them...
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Post by Gwalchmai »

@Viv: Your theories on Stonehenge are clearly well thought-out and highly accurate. But I would like to clarify one point: The 'sacrifice' of the redheads never resulted in death. In fact, their 'sacrifice' was often freely given to the druids, who were by far the most handsome, desirable, and physically powerful people in England at the time. Redheads would come from miles around and beg to be 'sacrificed'. The 'sacrificial' ritual often lasted all night long and the redheads were known to cry out such things as "Yes! Oh God, Yes!" and "Faster! Harder! Deeper!" Alas, the exact nature of these ancient rituals is lost to time, but if you sit very quietly within one of the Henges, you might feel some of the warmth and tingling sensations that must have accompanied the rituals.
That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.
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