Ressurection or Reincarnation?

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 5:46 pm

Originally posted by fable:
I suggest you read some of the works of Christian mystics, from Hildegard von Bingen to Teilhard de Chardin. <snip>

SS reply just below:
Those are not really Christians. There is no such thing as a Christian Mystic. Remember, just because one claims to be a 'Christian' does not mean they are one.

SS, how can you deny you have said St Hildegard von Bingen is not a true christian? This is cut and paste from just a few posts above in this very thread.

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: C Elegans ]

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 5:58 pm

Originally posted by fable:
I suggest you read some of the works of Christian mystics, from Hildegard von Bingen to Teilhard de Chardin. <snip>

SS reply just below:
Those are not really Christians. There is no such thing as a Christian Mystic. Remember, just because one claims to be a 'Christian' does not mean they are one.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
SS, how can you deny you have said St Hildegard von Bingen is not a true christian? This is cut and paste from just a few posts above in this very thread.

If they are Christians, then they are not truly mystics. However, we appear to be using different definitions of 'mystic.'

The definition I am using is the only definition I had ever learned for the term "mystic." That is someone who practices magic, the occult, etc. I have known someone who claimed to be a Christian Mystic, specifically a Christian Wicca. She was not really a Christian though.

I am still unsure of the definition ya'll are using for "mystic" though.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 6:41 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
I am still unsure of the definition ya'll are using for "mystic" though.

Somewhat conventional, I know, but shall we try a dictionary?

n mystic a person who seeks or attains direct intercourse with God in elevated religious feeling or ecstasy

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Georgi ]

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 6:45 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
The definition I am using is the only definition I had ever learned for the term "mystic." That is someone who practices magic, the occult, etc. I have known someone who claimed to be a Christian Mystic, specifically a Christian Wicca. She was not really a Christian though.

Um, this person could very well be a mystic, a Wiccan, and have Christian beliefs, minus, of course, any reference to the Athanasian Creed (which, as a Protestant, you follow). That aside, being a Wiccan is not identical with mysicism. @SS, you should look up terms to establish their general use and understanding.

We can discuss Wicca if you'd like, but that should really be broken out of this topic.

I've read book-long definitions about mysticism, but here's a short one I've encountered recently that sums it up well:

"Mysticism is concerned with the nature of reality, the individual's struggle to attain a clear vision of reality, and the transformation of consciousness that accompanies such vision."

If you place this agenda in the context of the Christian belief system, you have a Christian mystic. If you still deny this, I can only banish you to a good bookstore to read the likes of de Chardin, Hildegarde von Behren, Cyril of Alexandra, Nicholas of Cusa--and for that matter, the celebrated Protestant mystic, Jacob Boehme, who wrote so movingly about love for the divine.

Or would you like to hear some quotes from these Christian mystics who were "not Christians?"

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 7:17 pm

Originally posted by fable:
Um, this person could very well be a mystic, a Wiccan, and have Christian beliefs, minus, of course, any reference to the Athanasian Creed (which, as a Protestant, you follow).
That aside, being a Wiccan is not identical with mysicism. @SS, you should look up your terms before jumping to conclusions about 'em.

No, they are not True Christians. Witchcraft is of Satan. I'm not going to argue this one with you because it is irrelevant. She referred to herself as a Christian Mystic, interchangeable with Christian Wicca.

Originally posted by fable:
I've read book-long definitions about mysticism, but here's a short one I've encountered recently that sums it up well:

"Mysticism is concerned with the nature of reality, the individual's struggle to attain a clear vision of reality, and the transformation of consciousness that accompanies such vision."

If you place this agenda in the context of the Christian belief system, you have a Christian mystic. If you still deny this, I can only banish you to a good bookstore to read the likes of de Chardin, Hildegarde von Behren, Cyril of Alexandra, Nicholas of Cusa--and for that matter, the celebrated Protestant mystic, Jacob Boehme, who wrote so movingly about love for the divine.

Or would you like to hear some quotes from these Christian mystics who were "not Christians?"

Now that I understand the definition you are using, I agree that there are Christian Mystics, under that definition.

Let me show you something, though.

Webster's New Encyclopedic Dictionary has the following as a definition of 'mystic:' "Of or relating to mysteries or magical rites : OCCULT."

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 7:42 pm

Sailor Saturn writes:
No, they are not True Christians. Witchcraft is of Satan. I'm not going to argue this one with you because it is irrelevant. She referred to herself as a Christian Mystic, interchangeable with Christian Wicca.

Please read back, @SS. I never stated the person you referred to was a true Christian--I wrote they could be a Wiccan, a mystic, and have Christian beliefs. It is possible to follow a subset of beliefs as stated in the NT, without being a Christian. I think you'll probably agree with this.

Let me show you something, though.

Webster's New Encyclopedic Dictionary has the following as a definition of 'mystic:' "Of or relating to mysteries or magical rites : OCCULT."

Webster is way off base, here. They're confusing three very different terms: mysteries (as in religious mysteries), magical rites, and mysticism.

Let me offer a few quotes from selected Christian mystics as a guide to what this contemplative group has to offer:

"When your intellect in its great longing for God gradually withdraws from the flesh and turns away from all thoughts that have their source in your sense-perception, memory or soul-body temperament, and when it becomes full of reverence and joy, then you may conclude that you are close to the frontiers of prayer." -Evagrios: The Solitary

"We call this detachment night to the soul, for we are not treating here of the lack of things, since this implies no detachment on the part of the soul if it has a desire for them; but we are treating of the detachment from them of the taste and desire, for it is this that leaves the soul free and void of them, although it may have them; for it is not the things of this world that either occupy the soul or cause it harm, since they enter it not, but rather the will and desire for them, for it is these that dwell within it." -John of the Cross

"O eternal God, light surpassing all other light because all light comes forth from you! O fire surpassing every fire because you alone are the fire that burns without consuming! You consume whatever sin and selfishness you find in the soul. Yet your consuming does not distress the soul but fattens her with insatiable love, for though you satisfy her she is never sated but longs for you constantly. The more she possesses you the more she seeks you, and the more she seeks and desires you the more she finds and enjoys you, high eternal fire, abyss of charity!" -Catherine of Siena

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 7:58 pm

@SS: Here are a couple of short definitions of what "mystics" is, taken from philosophy lexicons.

Belief in a type of religious experience in which the individual claims to achieve immediate knowledge of or temporary union with God. Mysticism is an element in most theistic traditions and the validity of the experience is often claimed to be established by the similarity of the accounts by mystics from totally different cultures of their visions, trances, and ecstasies.

Mysticism
Mysticism (from Greek
mysterion , 'password' or 'secret ritual act') is a phenomenon common to all religions. By means of spiritual and/or physical exercises, the mystic experiences transcendent reality and direct contact or even fusion with the divine. The experience makes one see the coherence and unity of all things, natural and supernatural--a unity in which one is oneself involved. In ancient mysticism, and in much Eastern mysticism today, the soul of the mystic is thought to be absorbed into the divine. In modern Christian mysticism, by contrast, devotees retain their human identities, rapt in the beatific vision.

All the people fable is quoting, are mentioned in the lexicons in this context, so I leave to him to provide you with a more detailed definition. Perhaps you should not be so quick to judge when you don't know the common definitions of the terms you use.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 7:59 pm

Originally posted by fable:
Please read back, @SS. I never stated the person you referred to was a true Christian--I wrote they could be a Wiccan, a mystic, and have Christian beliefs. It is possible to follow a subset of beliefs as stated in the NT, without being a Christian. I think you'll probably agree with this.

I know what you said. I was not arguing with you. I was merely making a clarification so that the lurkers don't get anymore confused than they already are.

Originally posted by fable:
Webster is way off base, here. They're confusing three very different terms: mysteries (as in religious mysteries), magical rites, and mysticism.

That was one of the definitions. It also had the definition that you were using. Maybe I've been taught wrong what the word "mystic" means, but I had also never heard the term "Christian Mystic" used except by that Christian Wicca friend.

Originally posted by fable:
Let me offer a few quotes from selected Christian mystics as a guide to what this contemplative group has to offer:

"When your intellect in its great longing for God gradually withdraws from the flesh and turns away from all thoughts that have their source in your sense-perception, memory or soul-body temperament, and when it becomes full of reverence and joy, then you may conclude that you are close to the frontiers of prayer." -Evagrios: The Solitary

"We call this detachment night to the soul, for we are not treating here of the lack of things, since this implies no detachment on the part of the soul if it has a desire for them; but we are treating of the detachment from them of the taste and desire, for it is this that leaves the soul free and void of them, although it may have them; for it is not the things of this world that either occupy the soul or cause it harm, since they enter it not, but rather the will and desire for them, for it is these that dwell within it." -John of the Cross

"O eternal God, light surpassing all other light because all light comes forth from you! O fire surpassing every fire because you alone are the fire that burns without consuming! You consume whatever sin and selfishness you find in the soul. Yet your consuming does not distress the soul but fattens her with insatiable love, for though you satisfy her she is never sated but longs for you constantly. The more she possesses you the more she seeks you, and the more she seeks and desires you the more she finds and enjoys you, high eternal fire, abyss of charity!" -Catherine of Siena

Once you stated what definition you were using, I knew what these Christian Mystics believe. I do not recognize the names, but I do recognize the beliefs, though I had never heard them called mystics. I don't totally agree with everything they believe, but I don't necessarily disagree with all of it. The idea you stated that started all of this, the one about people being God(or something like that, I don't remember your exact wording) is very humanistic and not what Christians believe. Not all Christians believe the same thing and these Christian mystics may or may not be True Christians.

One thing to remember is that, though I can't prove they are not Christians, you can't prove they are Christians.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 8:09 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
The idea you stated that started all of this, the one about people being God(or something like that, I don't remember your exact wording) is very humanistic and not what Christians believe. Not all Christians believe the same thing

I don't think Fable ever actually said that all Christians believed that. He did however give examples of some Christians who did. All you can prove is that it's not what you believe, in your particular variation of Christianity.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 8:16 pm

Georgi, since SS is ignoring me. You want to go out and had a few drinks??? I'm buying.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 8:58 pm

Originally posted by Darkpoet:
Georgi, since SS is ignoring me. You want to go out and had a few drinks??? I'm buying.

Oops, sorry, Dp. I didn't mean to ignore you.

I've just been a little busy with debating, playing around with MGI PhotoSuite 4, and asking Random Shadow out on a date.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:02 pm

Originally posted by Georgi:
I don't think Fable ever actually said that all Christians believed that. He did however give examples of some Christians who did. All you can prove is that it's not what you believe, in your particular variation of Christianity.

He didn't say one way or the other, which was the problem. Some lurker might read it and think that all Christians do believe that. If you read all of that 'debate,' then I'm sure you learned something, whether you wanted to or not. I know I did.

"One should always come out of a debate having learned something, whether about yourself, your opponent, or the topic you were debating."~Me, though someone else may have said it before me.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:02 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
Oops, sorry, Dp. I didn't mean to ignore you. I've just been a little busy with debating, playing around with MGI PhotoSuite 4, and asking Random Shadow out on a date.

That's okay, I'll just have to drink this eight pack of Dr. pepper all by myself.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:06 pm

Originally posted by Darkpoet:

That's okay, I'll just have to drink this eight pack of Dr. pepper all by myself.

Hey, I'm not busy now.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:13 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
Hey, I'm not busy now.

What's the use, you will drink the Dr. Pepper and dump me for Random Shadow.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:28 pm

Originally posted by Darkpoet:
What's the use, you will drink the Dr. Pepper and dump me for Random Shadow.

That might would be true, if not for the fact that Random Shadow dumped me.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:32 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
That might would be true, if not for the fact that Random Shadow dumped me.

I'm sorry

Here sit next to me and have a Dr. Pepper. It might make you feel better.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:34 pm

Sailor Saturn writes:
The idea you stated that started all of this, the one about people being God(or something like that, I don't remember your exact wording) is very humanistic and not what Christians believe...

We shall have to disagree. Again, I can only recommend that you read the the Christian mystics I've mentioned, and perhaps consider John 14: 19-20, 1 John 4:16, and 1 Corinthians 6:17.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:39 pm

Originally posted by fable:
We shall have to disagree. Again, I can only recommend that you read the the Christian mystics I've mentioned, and perhaps consider John 14: 19-20, 1 John 4:16, and 1 Corinthians 6:17.

Those scriptures mean being in union with God, not being God. Reading those scriptures does not say anything about being mystic.

I think, that maybe reading it whole chapter instead of pulling out scriptures for your own benefit.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:39 pm

Originally posted by Darkpoet:
I'm sorry Here sit next to me and have a Dr. Pepper. It might make you feel better.

Thanks, Dp. That's awfully kind of you.