Christopher Columbus: hero or villan

Word · Post by **Word** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 6:42 pm

title says it all what do you think.

nael · Post by **nael** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 6:44 pm

he was neither.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 6:48 pm

Nael's right. Judged by the standards of his contemporaries, he was unusually harsh even by Castillian standards (they thought so), and definitely mercenary. But he's only a hero or villain if you cast him in a Theory. I prefer to think Columbus was a human being who came along with a particular idea at a time that was ripe for its pursuit.

Azeroth · Post by **Azeroth** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 6:55 pm

If nothing else Columbus had courage.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 7:14 pm

... and impact. IIRC, he was voted the fifth most significant Man of the Millenium, after Darwin, Luther, Newton, and Gutenberg, the inventor the the printing press, and disputable winner of the poll.

GBG!

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 7:42 pm

Originally posted by EMINEM:
... and impact. IIRC, he was voted the fifth most significant Man of the Millenium, after Darwin, Luther, Newton, and Gutenberg, the inventor the the printing press, and disputable winner of the poll.
GBG!

They forgot the guy who invented velcro.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 7:50 pm

Originally posted by fable:
They forgot the guy who invented velcro.

He came seventh after Einstein.

GBG!

nael · Post by **nael** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 8:07 pm

those polls annoyed me so much. the people that were voting for some of those were such idiots. i remember watching the Arts and Entertainment one, thinking it might have some merit...errrrrr...wrong. included in theri list was princess Di and patient zero, the theoretical first person to have HIV.
and yes, this list was for the whole millenium, not just the century. and even for the century those two entries shouldn't appear.
but columbus obviously belongs somewhere in there.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 11:20 am

I enjoy the idea of Columbus discovering the US, it makes it sound like America didn't exist before columbus came along, i was discussing this with a few people i coined it the fog of war effect, after Civilisation 1/2 (and colonsisation more to the point

), it is like when Columbus was moving to America more and more of it appeared as if magically.

Word · Post by **Word** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:41 pm

Does any one else here consider the Native American cultures as civilization?

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: Word ]

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:10 pm

Originally posted by Word:
Does nay else here consider the Native American cultures as civilization?

Sure they were/are. That's the problem with culturally specific histories: they make all the definitions, including the insidious ones that even define previous inhabitants out of existence.

I can still remember being taught that Columbus discovered America. He did nothing of the kind. More enlightened heads in Europe were aware of this large land mass hundreds of years before Columbus, but they had no means to take advantage of it. Almost by chance, Columbus' attempt to create a shorter route to China demonstrated something else, entirely--that there was a new land with plenty of harvestable resources for exploration and exploitation; band that it was within relatively easy reach, given modern technology. That's what he truly did.

A lot of speculation has centered recently on what America would have looked like if the Castilians had never arrived. Chances are there would have been a major war in both Central and South America, since the Incan Empire was losing its grip on power, while the sheer brutal bloodiness of the Aztecs had forced tribes that distrusted one another into a loose confederacy with one goal: topple the Aztecs. The Castilians chose the perfect moment to show up.

Word · Post by **Word** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 6:48 pm

@fable aren't you forgeting Leif Eriksson who was the First European explorer to reach the Americas in NewFoundland Canada. Also the Chinese invented the technology to sail the oceans far enough to reach America 200 years(at least) before Columbus sailed.

Does anybody else find it ironic that the most backward continent (at the time) conquered and shaped the world we live in today.

nael · Post by **nael** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 12:57 am

actually the oldest skeletons found in the Americas out date when eriksin should have come here. there was a caucasoid and a negroid skeleton found in the americas that far out date ANY so called native american remains. the caucasoid was in the northern regions (viking). negroid found in south america (africa)
Africa actually had the most sophisticated trade routes and means to trade by, but portugal knocked them back to the stone age for their Islamic temples along the coast. it was at this point when african tries began warring and trading eachother as slaves.
NO< the europeans never once went into mainland africa to "kidnap" slaves. they were purchased from warring tribes who had no means left to trade by.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:21 pm

Originally posted by Fable:
Nael's right. Judged by the standards of his contemporaries, he was unusually harsh even by Castillian standards (they thought so), and definitely mercenary.

Posted by Fable a bit later:
The Castilians chose the perfect moment to show up.

Just to clarify a small point, and I know you already know this Fable, but we wouldn't want to mislead anyone, but Christopher Columbus was Italian, rather than Spanish. His expeditions were backed by the Spanish monarchs, Ferdinand V and Isabella I. Hence, the ships and almost everyone aboard were Spanish (Castillian). But Chris was Italian.

- helpful Gwally

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:34 pm

Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
helpful Gwally

Teacher's pet

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:43 pm

Originally posted by Georgi:
Teacher's pet

Don't bother me, whelp. I am displaying my vast intellect, here.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:47 pm

Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Don't bother me, whelp. I am displaying my vast intellect, here.

That must not have taken very long

What's up you spurker, hows life?

Carbonyl · Post by **Carbonyl** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:19 pm

Columbus. I suppose it depends whom your asking.

To euro miners, merchant marines, zealots etc etc. he would certailny be a hero.

To african slaves, indians etc. He is the white devil.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 7:26 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
That must not have taken very long

What's up you spurker, hows life?

Actually, it took me a while. I had to look up how to spell 'whelp'.

Other than feeling kinda old, I'm fine.
Columbus, on the other hand, is still dead, hero or not.

Gibsonajt · Post by **Gibsonajt** » Thu Sep 06, 2001 9:48 am

some people recon that all the pyramids in the world were planted by aliens including the ones in asia, america, and africa