Theological Quandaries 101

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Fri May 18, 2001 7:56 am

Kayless said:

Fortunately, God is a much nicer and forgiving guy then you or I (at least according to Christian doctrine). He doesn’t get P.O.ed when people fall short of pristine behavior and doesn’t demand that saints alone worship him.

Sorry, Kayless, but to me, this sounds a lot like some kid saying, "I caught a fish this(...) big!" And by the end of the day, it has become, "I caught a fish this (..................) big!"

I expect that over an extended period of time(2001 years to be precise) that such a falsehood about some wonderful guy that is forgiving and kind and will look after us all could arise.

I suppose it's comforting to believe in such a thing, and I don't believe for one second that I could make a believer in god think otherwise. It'd be like taking a blanket off a homeless person. Besides, it wouldn't feel right denying someone of a source of comfort no matter how absurd it seems to me. Same thing as small children with teddy bears. Sooner or later though, every child grows up and see's what they want to see. Teddy bear or no teddy bear.

Something I would like to know though, is how does the christian belief take into account the other religions? Just a thought I'd like to explore anyway

hermetic · Post by **hermetic** » Fri May 18, 2001 8:01 am

Oh well now my feelings are hurt. I think loner72 feels I'm to blame for the deterioration of this thread. I guess the disclaimer he made in the very first post of this thread, that Alistair Crowley types aren't welcome is ringing true now. I now understand that loner72 is a very perceptive individual who knows fully well that the pharoahs of the world can easily denounce conventional religion. I'm sorry for ruining your perfectly legitimate debate on Jehovah. I was hoping to turn the discussion to God.

But being the seeker that I am, I beg forgiveness. Let's keep this debate alive only because it's filled with such a great cast. I'll keep my juvenalian wit to a minimum if anybody actually wants to get down to some serious indoctrina...er, I mean discussion.

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Fri May 18, 2001 8:25 am

Originally posted by hermetic:
I think loner72 feels I'm to blame for the deterioration of this thread...I now understand that loner72 is a very perceptive individual who knows fully well that the pharoahs of the world can easily denounce conventional religion. I'm sorry for ruining your perfectly legitimate debate on Jehovah. I was hoping to turn the discussion to God.

Obviously you missed my post addressing EMINEM's penchant for telling people they'll be going to Hell.

I couldn't care less about my faith being denounced. This thread just isn't the place for denouncing anything. Nor is it about insulting those who don't happen to share one's beliefs. It's about debating ideas; denouncing/flaming and debating are seperate things. I saw this topic beginning to turn into a denouncing/flaming fest (on more than one front) and that was my concern.

I don't think anyone cares what is said in here, as long as it's said in a civil manner. As Anatres said, bigotry -- and bigotry can come from many sides -- is destructive, and solves nothing.

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Fri May 18, 2001 8:29 am

@hermetic; I can't speak for loner72, but I haven't found your participation to disruptive. There was another (whose name shall remain unspoken) that really started smashing at the walls of reason here.

hermetic · Post by **hermetic** » Fri May 18, 2001 8:30 am

Evolution eh? Natural Selection, survival of the fittest, etc. is actually the most intimidating concept known to man. There is absolutely no room for comfort in Natural Selection.

For the common man, reality is split into public and private life, the demos and the oikos. In fact, a better term for these are "competition" and "comfort" respectively. As humans actively participating in Natural Selection, it is in the competitive public world that we witness evolution.

The covetous nature of life pushes evolution, keeps the genetic code of life kicking in this vast harsh universe.

And so the theological quandary: why does religion oppose evolution? Well I could make this another bit of invective, but I'll be nice. Most intensely (blindly) religious folks seek some sort of comfort in their private life away from their public. Religion naturally hides the mean truth of it all. If we all of a sudden decided to stop being competitive and accepted Jehovah into our hearts we'd cease to exist because some meteor would come and blow us to smithereens (I'm looking ahead to the inevitable, using logic and science). Evolution doesn't need to be proven. It must be.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri May 18, 2001 8:38 am

You are bound to get ridiculos comments because some people are just plain immature and can not have a rational conversation.

Unlike me who always has something sensible to say....

But seriously the advent of any of these discussions brings in people who can not agree and then end up flaming about it.

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Fri May 18, 2001 8:52 am

Hummmm. Evolution in relation to creationism. Somewhere some time back I asked the question 'why can't God have been/be that mass of proto-matter that exploded into the ever expanding Universe?'.

Obviously, unless you have absolutely no faith-based beliefs of any kind, you must accept that the Universe may have begun at some point in history. The ever asked question is always 'what came before' or 'where/who started the Universe?'.

I will offer two arguments: 1) The Universe never 'started', it has always been and will always be; 2) The Universe is God.

In defense of 1), I offer a question - What's the sum of infinity + 1?. For 2), Doesn't this answer both questions? (Evolution v. Creationism).

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Fri May 18, 2001 8:55 am

Ice age or the Flood?

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:00 am

@Anatres -- There is a theory in theology that the universe is co-something (I can't think of the term...is it coeval??) with God, meaning they share an eternal nature. In other words, God always was, and so was the universe...although if you follow this through, it leads to two possibilities:

1. God will "end" when the universe does;
2. Neither will end. Since the universe shares God's eternal nature from the "past", it will also share God's eternal nature stretching into the "future".

Not sure how I feel about this theory...

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:02 am

Originally posted by Darkpoet:
Ice age or the Flood?

Well, when the ice melted...

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:05 am

Originally posted by loner72:
Well, when the ice melted...

What about the flood from the bible. Water covered the whole earth.

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:07 am

@DP; I'm not quite following your comment.... but; the Ice Age is provable, the Flood is not (at least in the time-frame assigned it in the Bible).

As for evolution, the 'Tree of Life' has many branches some of which can be analysed back along themselves showing the positions of the branches-within-branches that lead back to the trunk and thus to the root. Some cannot. Did Man evolve from monkeys? No, but we do share a common ancestor (the point where the primate branch of the tree started growing away from the trunk). Is most of this scientific speculation? Yes. Is it supported by geologic as well as fossil evidence? Yes. Can a (or many) books written by Man (who has always searched for the meaning of life) explain away this evidence. No.

Can God be the answer? Maybe.

Vivien · Post by **Vivien** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:09 am

Darkpoet: *hugs* I've heard tell the in many different mythology's there are tales of 'water covering the earth.' Some tales start with the earth originally BEING water and then land coming through and the birth of life beginning...others similar to our western 'Noah and the Arc' story... I just find that interesting

I'm not joining the debate at all, so feel free to debate around my additions here

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:11 am

@loner72; basically my point. 'That which always was (Universe/God) is that which will always be'. To paraphrase.

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:12 am

@Vivien; you are more than welcome to continue posting.

BTW, hello.

hermetic · Post by **hermetic** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:18 am

Legends surrounding the flood almost certainly began as a result of the Ice Age. Every culture seems to have a flood story, or at least a story relating how mankind's original civil structure was destroyed by God only to be rebuilt by the few virtuous survivors. Without getting into silly stuff like Graham Han****, let me say that I do believe that something physical precipitated the stories of the flood. I actually have alot of faith in the intellectual faculties of our forefathers, and I think the flood myths must have been based on something substantial.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:19 am

I had doing some thinking. What I have seen that floods can do, moving earth around. If mud buries stuff deep enough, it could be perserved. It's already been proven that the whole earth was tropical at one time. If there was a creator, why would he allow a meteor to hit the earth to cause an ice age?

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:19 am

Originally posted by Vehemence:
Sorry, Kayless, but to me, this sounds a lot like some kid saying, "I caught a fish this(...) big!" And by the end of the day, it has become, "I caught a fish this (..................) big!"

I expect that over an extended period of time(2001 years to be precise) that such a falsehood about some wonderful guy that is forgiving and kind and will look after us all could arise.

The idea of God being merciful is rather intrinsic to Christian belief. This concept of kind and loving God has been around for quite a while. So I fail to understand why you say I am exaggerating God’s mercy quotient when it’s been the basis of Christian teachings since the time of Jesus himself (so it's a hardly a recently developed idea). If you feel I’ve been overly astringent or dishonest in my proclamations then I apologize for not elucidating my point better. But my message remains constant. Here are some scriptures showing God to be a nice guy, in case you still feel I’ve been fabricating the idea, or that it was something made up in the 1960s:

EPHESIANS 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.

PHILIPPIANS 2:27 For indeed he was sick almost unto death; but God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

LAMENTATIONS 3:22-23 [Through] the Lord's mercies we are not consumed, Because His compassions fail not.

Originally posted by Vehemence:
I suppose it's comforting to believe in such a thing, and I don't believe for one second that I could make a believer in god think otherwise. It'd be like taking a blanket off a homeless person. Besides, it wouldn't feel right denying someone of a source of comfort no matter how absurd it seems to me. Same thing as small children with teddy bears. Sooner or later though, every child grows up and see's what they want to see. Teddy bear or no teddy bear.

This paragraph is similar to the one in your earlier post where you refer to Christian beliefs as ‘garbage’. We’re all entitled to our own values, but making condescending remarks about someone else’s belief system, strikes me as the wrong approach. Besides, I thought I had made a reasonable point that faith could provide more self-reliance for a person, not less. Comparing a believer in God to a ‘homeless person’ or a 'child with a teddy bear' who hasn’t grown out of believing seems a bit inappropriate. Regardless of my own views I respect your beliefs Vehemence, is it so much to ask that it be reciprocated?

Originally posted by Vehemence:
Something I would like to know though, is how does the christian belief take into account the other religions? Just a thought I'd like to explore anyway

Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, so there is a mutual history there. There are even Christian Jews that have converted. The gulf there is not as large as with some other religions though. With these other faiths I can only speak for my local clergy (rather then Christianity as a whole, throughout the world) who largely ‘leave alone and are left alone’ by churches of other religions.

[ 05-18-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]

Vivien · Post by **Vivien** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:21 am

Anatres: But we all know that I am very flexible about my opinions. In this case, I don't have a firm opinion. *shrug*
Therefore, I rarely have anything to add besides: I see that side and that side

Hello to you as well

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Fri May 18, 2001 9:25 am

Originally posted by Anatres:
@loner72; basically my point. 'That which always was (Universe/God) is that which will always be'. To paraphrase.

Hmmm...well, if God is the source of life (coming from my own POV of the Creator as seperate from the creation), then God Himself(/Herself/Itself) must be deathless. If God is the eternal Creator, there is no end to the act of creation. Therefore the "universe" (not necessarily as we know it) is eternal.

I might be wrong here, but isn't there a theory in science that the universe will eventually end by flying apart, or something?...