Warden's Keep, DLC's and CRPG's...a grim future

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:19 pm

Makes you wonder why Black Isle back in the day didn't offer up all the unused content in BG2 for a price. I believe it was packaged up for free and called Unfinished Business and was readily available online. Once the Infinity Engine was opened up to allow the community to make mods, this additional material was released.

But, the culture of computer gaming has changed dramatically this decade. 10 to 15 years ago, companies patched games and offered up other content for free in an effort to maintain a loyal following. These days, it's big big business. The competition that exists requires all kinds of corners being shaved, products rushed to shelves (and this game was years in development), and using the consumer base sometimes as beta testers. Because of the money and numbers involved, why wouldn't one try to make some extra bucks. The sheer numbers of gamers now means the industry doesn't have to cater to us. If one person says they are done with bioware games, there are ten people to take their spot.

Again, these companies are in it for the money. Bioware might have the passion, but EA publishes the game and the bottom line is what is important to them. It doesn't sounds fuzzy and no one is obligated to participate, but that's my view, right or wrong. The DLC actually contributes to the bottom line and that extra revenue can assist a developer in getting the thumbs up to make more games, as opposed to closing shop because a product didn't meet sales projections.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:43 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:Again, these companies are in it for the money. Bioware might have the passion, but EA publishes the game and the bottom line is what is important to them. It doesn't sounds fuzzy and no one is obligated to participate, but that's my view, right or wrong. The DLC actually contributes to the bottom line and that extra revenue can assist a developer in getting the thumbs up to make more games, as opposed to closing shop because a product didn't meet sales projections.

But I have to wonder whether it isn'it possible to make quality DLCs that are offered outside the game, and developed within a few months after the game's release. That worked perfectly well for Bethsoft's Oblivion. People bought and downloaded several official mods. They sold. Or must we have companies so cynical about it all that the game itself becomes a vehicle for purchasing more game content, that was withheld from the main product in order to charge yet more? The first example is a standard business retail model. The second loses track completely I think of game development, and becomes instead a conveyor belt for endless commodities. It is about reselling to you in effect what you've just bought, within hours of starting it up.

So what's next? Will the business model for game publishers become "Get our XYZ Game for only $24.95! And if you want to really get the best experience, we have a few additional areas in it that you'll just love, with fantastic lore and goods, only you'll have to go to our website to find out about how it raises our charges to $49.95"?

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:27 pm

Down this slope is having to purchase in game items with real money. The thing I find objectionable is not the DLC being offered, but the wanker in camp with the bloody exclamation point over his head reminding me each time I see him he is nothing but an advertisement to buy content. Just what is wrong with the DLC option on the main menu?

How about the next time you watch a DVD, right in the middle of a dramatic scene, one of the characters turns to the camera and exhorts you to buy Coke. Odious, or just business? I don't care that they are offering DLC, I just want the darn ads out of the middle of the game.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:17 pm

Just as a sidenote, the official forums have numerous fanboys who tout the game as offering more quests than any other ever did, and a variety of other factually challenged content. One popular subject asks Bioware to produce as much DLC as possible, claiming it's all fantastic, and adds to the greatest game ever made. I don't expect to see much concern expressed seriously there over the implications of in-game advertisements for DLCs.

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:28 pm

fable wrote:Just as a sidenote, the official forums have numerous fanboys who tout the game as offering more quests than any other ever did, and a variety of other factually challenged content. One popular subject asks Bioware to produce as much DLC as possible, claiming it's all fantastic, and adds to the greatest game ever made. I don't expect to see much concern expressed seriously there over the implications of in-game advertisements for DLCs.

Game community forums seem to attract fanboys like flies to honey. I have already seen how the criticism of how the DLC was handled is shouted down. The mods don't even have to warn them. the fanboys simply flame them to a brittle crisp.

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:07 pm

Points taken. I guess personally the guy/advertisement in the game doesn't bother me. In fact, I could see it becoming a standard along with a window that opens like game inventory to monitor DLC while still in game. Your character will no longer have a name, but will consist of your credit card number and hit points will be determined by the three digit code on the back of your card.

Oblivion released their DLC in different windows after the games release, but its not as if it wasn't planned from the start. I suppose EA could have waited a while for the watcher's keep content.

Last, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the download scheme was all EA.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:21 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:Last, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the download scheme was all EA.

EA catches a lot of flack, and all of it is deserved. That said, Bioware long ago (actually, right after BG2) ceased being the company made by a few young physicians in Alberta who loved playing tabletop D&D on long, cold, winter nights. They've been part of the Game Industry for years, producing assembly line RPGs for quite a while. So while this does smack of EA's marketing, um, brilliance, I don't doubt that it was approved by the current crop of accountants who have led Bioware for several years.

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:51 am

fable wrote:EA catches a lot of flack, and all of it is deserved. That said, Bioware long ago (actually, right after BG2) ceased being the company made by a few young physicians in Alberta who loved playing tabletop D&D on long, cold, winter nights. They've been part of the Game Industry for years, producing assembly line RPGs for quite a while. So while this does smack of EA's marketing, um, brilliance, I don't doubt that it was approved by the current crop of accountants who have led Bioware for several years.

To correct my previous posts, it's warden's keep, not watcher's keep (another BG2 reference).

I'm in agreement with your line of thinking which circles back to my own point about this being a business and turning a buck.

Most DLC is modestly priced and I'm a sucker for more content but I don't always buy in for every game I buy. With Oblivion, I picked and chose. Still never got the official expansion for oblivion, but did grab a few pieces of DLC. I also stay away from the deluxe packages that are initially offered. I'd have considered the deluxe package here if it came with a live Ferelden pet ogre. With proper training, the horns would make great cocktail stirrers and that'd be quite the party trick. Not to mention crowd control.

Tenser · Post by **Tenser** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:24 am

I can only strongly agree.

I strictly avoided all downloads and other stuff.

The only things I accept are Patches and Addons. Otherwise leave me alone with all that crap. "DLC" ? My a** !

Its even more absurd that the game comes with an editor, for heavens sake. In my understanding, you can already fix your game as you want, given enough knowhow.

If you want to make a game that comes with internet, then give me a MMO. Games that come with singleplayer mode shouldnt require the internet.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:35 am

Tenser wrote:The only things I accept are Patches and Addons. Otherwise leave me alone with all that crap. "DLC" ? My a** !

You mean, "My ass," don't you?

Please avoid letter substitutions. Either it'll get past the filter, or it won't, and the site owner doesn't like sneakiness.

Its even more absurd that the game comes with an editor, for heavens sake. In my understanding, you can already fix your game as you want, given enough knowhow.

It's my fond hope that the advert in your camp will be made mortal by a mod, and die at your feet after confessing in dialog that he's a traitor to the lands.

Aqua-chan · Post by **Aqua-chan** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:39 am

jklinders wrote:Game community forums seem to attract fanboys like flies to honey. I have already seen how the criticism of how the DLC was handled is shouted down. The mods don't even have to warn them. the fanboys simply flame them to a brittle crisp.

With absolutely no interest in causing drama, I'll go ahead and tell the honest truth that I myself have been suspended from the official forums several times for "inciting" angry outbursts with my game commentary. Finally I just left altogether. Anything you say can send fanboys into an absolute tizzy, cursing and swearing as you try your hardest to keep your cool and explain your perspective -- and the mods come in three pages later to shake their fingers and say "Hey, you guys! Behave yourselves". Obviously, there's no big deterrent for flaming fanaticism.

The DLC should have been standard with the game. They were short quests (I was expecting Warden's Keep to be a major dungeon crawl like Watcher's Keep in BG2, not a three-level ascent equivalent to the square footage of my dining room). I felt like I paid for Shale exclusively, not for the cheap quest to get him that might have involved Pipe Dream if you choose to go that route.

The only plus to them were that your characters interacted and had dialog about the current situation. My issue with Mass Effect's DLCs were (aside from the fact they were, y'know, pretty lame

) was that there was no talking from your squad. With DA had the voice actors there to speak up, but again that only reinforces my opinion that it should have been included content.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:49 am

Aqua-chan wrote:Anything you say can send fanboys into an absolute tizzy, cursing and swearing as you try your hardest to keep your cool and explain your perspective -- and the mods come in three pages later to shake their fingers and say "Hey, you guys! Behave yourselves". Obviously, there's no big deterrent for flaming fanaticism.

There's also clear bias in the selection of threads that are allowed. One that expressed non-trollish disappointment with the game got 11 pages of a repeating number of screaming fanboys attacking it, before it was simply scrubbed from the forums. Another, asserting in a series of errors "firsts" that no other game had done before DA:O, simply accumulated lots of cheerleading and more factual errors. What's surprising there is an apparent discrepancy between the immaturity of quite a few posters, and the level of cognitive ability required to read, listen to, and understand the contents of the game. Given the sheer weight of mistakes in some of those posts, I have to wonder whether the fanboys have played more than an hour or two--or even watched an older sibling play.

The DLC should have been standard with the game. They were short quests (I was expecting Warden's Keep to be a major dungeon crawl like Watcher's Keep in BG2, not a three-level ascent equivalent to the square footage of my dining room). I felt like I paid for Shale exclusively, not for the cheap quest to get him that might have involved Pipe Dream if you choose to go that route.

I strongly suspect EA-Bioware wants to establish primacy right from the start over DLC, rather than discover it hasn't got that kind of authority as Bethsoft discovered with Oblivion. The question is, how much more can the small group of very vocal kiddie fanboys splurge on DLC before daddy and mommy step in? And will the larger group of older players, looking at this objectively, want to spend in this fashion, or hold off for fan-made content?

Cyro · Post by **Cyro** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:44 am

If you don't like the business plan, don't buy the DLC. I don't really see the problem, bioware make excellent games and need to make money to keep doing it, I'm perfectly happy with the method they've included.

Elevoros · Post by **Elevoros** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:42 am

Cyro wrote:If you don't like the business plan, don't buy the DLC. I don't really see the problem, bioware make excellent games and need to make money to keep doing it, I'm perfectly happy with the method they've included.

Buisness is one thing, blatant commercialisation and manipulation of the consumer entirely another...A CRPG developer of complex games will never, ever make as much money as an commercial FPS developer for example! The audience of these games is simply much smaller. They have to keep that in mind before they try to squeeze more and more money out of their loyal fan-base.

Don't buy the DLC? Ok I agree. As long as they don't advertise it in my face IN GAME!

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:35 am

Cyro wrote:If you don't like the business plan, don't buy the DLC.

We're not discussing whether one has the right (or not) to refuse purchase of an item, but whether it's ethical to put an advertisement for another product directly in your face in an RPG--something that has never happened before. Feel free to suggest that it's ethical if you'd like, but give us your reasons for doing so.

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:37 am

Cyro wrote:If you don't like the business plan, don't buy the DLC. I don't really see the problem, bioware make excellent games and need to make money to keep doing it, I'm perfectly happy with the method they've included.

I am with Fable, waiting for the mod that makes the Wardens Keep advert vulnerable and a traitor, so I can kill him, get some experience out of it and have the damn ad out of the game that I paid full price for. There is a menu option in the main menu to buy DLC. I don't need that crap IN GAME too.

It's quite obnoxious and a little disrespectful too.

endboss · Post by **endboss** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:38 pm

Is anyone working on a mod to remove the DLC characters?

That, and a nice patch, is all that's keeping me from buying DA.

Cyro · Post by **Cyro** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:44 pm

fable wrote:We're not discussing whether one has the right (or not) to refuse purchase of an item, but whether it's ethical to put an advertisement for another product directly in your face in an RPG--something that has never happened before. Feel free to suggest that it's ethical if you'd like, but give us your reasons for doing so.

Sorry if it was confusing but my point was; if you find it unethical, then don't use it. I actually prefer it as a tie in ad, I found it neither blatant or offensive and simply considered it a good marketing tool at worst.

I don't really view any advertisement unethical, unless it's being spy-wared onto my computer (aka. Sony). I find some distasteful, but this I didn't.

That said, I had every intention of buying it anyway, so maybe I'm biased?

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:23 pm

Cyro wrote:Sorry if it was confusing but my point was; if you find it unethical, then don't use it.

Ethics are a curious thing. When we tend to find something unethical, we comment about it among our peer groups. And if it is unethical behavior in an area that was previously considered sacrosanct, those comments are magnified.

My way of saying that people may or may not play it, but the comments will keep coming, along with observations about the direction game design has taken since it was overtaken many years ago by the Game Industry. And that's only reasonable, since the status quo has really changed, here.

GoldDragon · Post by **GoldDragon** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:51 pm

Me, this is how I would have had it done.

I'd have the guy in there, yes. but he'd say that you can't help him, no matter what you do.

When you close out the conversation, or have him auto-end the conversation, a pop-up would come telling you that it is DLC stuff, and that to do this quest, you need to purchase it.