The religious evangelical far right, and Halloween (no spam)

[fable]

This is priceless. For those among us who don't live in the US, Pat Robertson is an aged, very wealthy, very conservative tv evangelist with a large following over the last 30 years, and quite a few connections in the European evangelical system (especially the Netherlands). His network--television, radio, and website--is extensive. They put up a piece earlier today on that website by one Kimberly Daniels, of the Kimberly Daniels Ministry International Home, that was eventually taken down, but linked to and copied repeatedly on other sites before that happened.

It's about Halloween. And here are some choice nuggets from it:

During Halloween, time-released curses are always loosed. A time-released curse is a period that has been set aside to release demonic activity and to ensnare souls in great measure ... During this period demons are assigned against those who participate in the rituals and festivities. These demons are automatically drawn to the fetishes that open doors for them to come into the lives of human beings. For example, most of the candy sold during this season has been dedicated and prayed over by witches.

And this:

I do not buy candy during the Halloween season. Curses are sent through the tricks and treats of the innocent whether they get it by going door to door or by purchasing it from the local grocery store. The demons cannot tell the difference.

And, of course, this:

The word "occult" means "secret." The danger of Halloween is not in the scary things we see but in the secret, wicked, cruel activities that go on behind the scenes. These activities include:

* Sex with demons
* Orgies between animals and humans
* Animal and human sacrifices
* Sacrificing babies to shed innocent blood

But as a witch (yes, seriously; initiated in 1978, practiced long before) of more than 30 years, this I find especially delightful:

Halloween is much more than a holiday filled with fun and tricks or treats. It is a time for the gathering of evil that masquerades behind the fictitious characters of Dracula, werewolves, mummies and witches on brooms. The truth is that these demons that have been presented as scary cartoons actually exist. I have prayed for witches who are addicted to drinking blood and howling at the moon.

Yes, there's nothing that gets my circulatory system singing in the morning after a late night revel consuming children like drinking blood and practicing my nocturnal howls at the moon.

You can read the whole thing right here. Amazing.

[Sain]

Ugh, is this a joke, right? There must be something wrong with someone so devoted to an ancient textbook.

[QuenGalad]

You know, had i met any witches addicted to drinking blood and howling at the moon i would have considered praying for them too

So Fable, how was Candy Cursing this year? Did you manage to curse all the sweets in your region? I understand you do it so that the cursed kids can't run away while you capture them and subsequently sacrifice them in your back yard?

Or maybe there are different curses you could inflict via candy? This could actually be quite useful, when your neighbors' kids come for sweets : you could curse them all with Silence, Weakness, Sleepiness, and so on... I see possibilities!

Seriously though, how does this guy explain the depths of his knowledge on the matter? Did he read it all in H.P. Lovecraft stories or what?

[fable]

So Fable, how was Candy Cursing this year? Did you manage to curse all the sweets in your region? I understand you do it so that the cursed kids can't run away while you capture them and subsequently sacrifice them in your back yard?

I had a fine time running through super markets cursing all the candy isles until my asthma acted up, and I started wheezing heavily. Got in the way of the curses, and I ended up changing the candy instead into accountants. Which, when you think about it, is pretty evil, too.

Seriously though, how does this guy explain the depths of his knowledge on the matter? Did he read it all in H.P. Lovecraft stories or what?

It's Robertson's site, but the person who wrote the article is a woman who heads her own international ministry--good to know, just in case you want to contact her for a speaking engagement. But I do agree with you: this is the sort of thing that screams "projection." I've no doubt the more serious evangelical ministers who demonize others in this fashion would produce some fascinating results if they ever seriously went for psychoanalysis.

[Bloodstalker]

This reminds me of when I was a kid of about 10-12 or so. A church decided that Halloween was evil and all celebrations were, by extension, openly embracing the devil. So, they decided to throw their own celebration for the kids of the chucrh that had nothing at all to do with Halloween. You know, nothing beyond the fact that it took place at night, on Halloween, and involved a bonfire and candy etc. I asked the pastor why they didn't just call it a Halloween party and was informed it wasn't a Halloween party. It was, in fact a Hallelujah party. I pointed out that was stupid, and they wouldn't be having the party if it wasn't Halloween, whereupon the pastor began to become increasingly nervous. I was told I didn't understand, and being a kid, of course that just made me argue more. In the end, I was bribed with a hot dog to shut up and go away as best I can remember. It left a lasting impression on me. The moral I learned that night was if you disagree with a hard line conservative figure, you get a weenie in a bun.

As I grew older, I learned that, with certain allowances for more adult phrasing, this is, in fact, the basic principle upon which fanatical conservative fundamentalists and the hardcore Republican crowd operates from in all their political dealings.

[Curry]

Ugh, is this a joke, right?

Sex with demons sounds tempting though

[Fljotsdale]

Well, to put in a serious note - and I have to point out first that I am NOT religious - a Christian really should not celebrate Halloween. Church doctrine (not the Bible) says they are supposed to commemorate All Saints Eve. Which isn't the same as Halloween by any means! Halloween is pagan (I'm not knocking pagan, btw, even though I'm an unbeliever in ALL the gods and allied beliefs), All Saints is supposedly Christian; even though both events take place at the same time, I think.
The Church chose to substitute the 'Christian' for the pagan (just as Bloodstalker's cleric was atempting - though why he didn't just do All Saints I dunno), in order to prevent their flocks celebrating Halloween. (At least I think so. I haven't checked the facts in the last 20 years or so, and could have got confused...)

[Sain]

Sex with demons sounds tempting though

Well, I spent Halloween sacrificing chickens, definatly fun.

[jklinders]

Well, to put in a serious note - and I have to point out first that I am NOT religious - a Christian really should not celebrate Halloween. Church doctrine (not the Bible) says they are supposed to commemorate All Saints Eve. Which isn't the same as Halloween by any means! Halloween is pagan (I'm not knocking pagan, btw, even though I'm an unbeliever in ALL the gods and allied beliefs), All Saints is supposedly Christian; even though both events take place at the same time, I think.
The Church chose to substitute the 'Christian' for the pagan (just as Bloodstalker's cleric was atempting - though why he didn't just do All Saints I dunno), in order to prevent their flocks celebrating Halloween. (At least I think so. I haven't checked the facts in the last 20 years or so, and could have got confused...)

Quite true, but it is also true that Christianity and superstition has moved hand in hand for much of it's history. As it was explained to me, back in ye Olde days in the UK it was believed that evil was strongest just before Holy days. As part of a pagan oriented belief, people believed that spits and demons would roam around looking for the unwary the night before said holy day.

And this is where the costumes come in. There was this delightfully naive belief that if you dressed as one of them, the demons and spirits would leave you alone.

Is this the whole truth? I do not know, the church was rarely able to extinguish all pagan ideas. Maybe the only reason halloween was left alone was because there would have been an outcry if ALL efforts to ward off evil spirits was disallowed.

[galraen]

I'm not sure where the term 'Halloween' came from, but the origins are Celtic, and was known as Samhain, which was the festival marking the start of the new year.

From LivingMyths.com:

Samhain

The Celtic year began with Samhain. Celebrated around 31 October, it was a time of deliberate misrule and contrariness, rather like the Roman Saturnalia. It was also a time when the veil between this world and the Otherworld was thought to be so thin that the dead could return to warm themselves at the hearths of the living, and some of the living - especially poets - were able to enter the Otherworld through the doorways of the sidhe, such as that at the Hill of Tara in Ireland.

At Samhain cattle were brought in for the winter, and in Ireland the warrior élite, the Fianna, gave up war until Beltain. It was a sacred time, whose peace was normally broken only by the ritualized battle of board games such as fidchell.

Our modern Hallowe’en stems from Samhain, and one explanation of the traditional pumpkin lanterns is that the Celts once placed the skulls of ancestors outside their doors at this time. The Christians took over the Celtic festival and turned it into All Saints Day. Even the modern English celebration of Guy Fawkes Day has echoes of the ancient fire festival.

It's not unusual for Christians to hijack pagan festivals, mainly due to their failure to persuade people to abandon them. They couldn't stop people celebrating Yuletide, so simply overlayed it with Christmas. So what the person that Fable started this thread about is doing is continuing Christian tradition, although as Fljotsdale pointed out, in this instance he/she is re-inventing the wheel so to speak, as Christianity has already invented All Saints.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Wait, she might be on to something here...think about it.
1: According to the dentist, candy rots your teeth. Clearly cursed.
2. If you eat lots of candy you feel sick. Cursed.
3. Can't speak for everyone but for me at least hot chicks in Halloween costumes inspire lustful thoughts of an exceptionally sinful nature. From angels with long legs and short skirts, to vampire babes who can definitely suck my...um, blood, to slinky cat-girls I'd make purr anyday - at every Halloween party I've been to since 15 the candy I've been interested in doesn't just melt in your mouth. Sex with demons, animal-human relations, revel nights - this is clearly the work of the devil.

[fable]

3. Can't speak for everyone but for me at least hot chicks in Halloween costumes inspire lustful thoughts of an exceptionally sinful nature. From angels with long legs and short skirts, to vampire babes who can definitely suck my...um, blood, to slinky cat-girls I'd make purr anyday - at every Halloween party I've been to since 15 the candy I've been interested in doesn't just melt in your mouth. Sex with demons, animal-human relations, revel nights - this is clearly the work of the devil.

I think it may have been Luther who pointed out with annoyance that "The devil has all the best tunes." It seems we give the owe everything good to the devil: good sex, good art, colorful crafts, good food, attractive gardens, nice clothes, jewelry, etc. It's even true about interesting people. As Sam Clemens once put it, "Heaven for climate, hell for company." The wonder is that someone doesn't decide the monotheistic deity-in-charge is really just some envious guy or gal who decided one day that somebody else's god was a lot brighter and more artistic, so they'd do themeselves a favor by declaring everything good to be horrible.

[endboss]

* Sex with demons
* Orgies between animals and humans
* Animal and human sacrifices
* Sacrificing babies to shed innocent blood

Having an orgy between animals and humans would be like herding cats... and then trying to have sex with them. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I wonder though, do witches and warlocks function on the mana system, the memorization (DnD) system, or is there just a cool-down timer? I rolled a skeptic at character creation so I'm kind of oblivious to this stuff.

It's not unusual for Christians to hijack pagan festivals, mainly due to their failure to persuade people to abandon them. They couldn't stop people celebrating Yuletide, so simply overlayed it with Christmas. So what the person that Fable started this thread about is doing is continuing Christian tradition, although as Fljotsdale pointed out, in this instance he/she is re-inventing the wheel so to speak, as Christianity has already invented All Saints.

I'm pretty sure that all Christian holidays are exactly this. If there wasn't an already Christian holiday to superimpose on the pagan holiday (Jesus' birthday, for example) then they just made one up. What's really interesting about All Saints Day is how it moved and transformed into All Saints Day & All Souls Day (Day of the Dead) in Mexico. Religious history is fascinating - unfortunately some people take these fairy tales seriously.

I think it may have been Luther who pointed out with annoyance that "The devil has all the best tunes." It seems we give the owe everything good to the devil: good sex, good art, colorful crafts, good food, attractive gardens, nice clothes, jewelry, etc. It's even true about interesting people. As Sam Clemens once put it, "Heaven for climate, hell for company." The wonder is that someone doesn't decide the monotheistic deity-in-charge is really just some envious guy or gal who decided one day that somebody else's god was a lot brighter and more artistic, so they'd do themeselves a favor by declaring everything good to be horrible.

Well, the devil did bring us the knowledge of good and evil, freewill, freethinking, and the ability to loosen our bonds from a childish and maniacal super genie. He also apparently brought us science by planting all those fossils and manipulating our microscopes.

[fable]

I wonder though, do witches and warlocks function on the mana system, the memorization (DnD) system, or is there just a cool-down timer? I rolled a skeptic at character creation so I'm kind of oblivious to this stuff.

First, there are no such things as warlocks, except in fiction. Second, if you want to read up on witches, you might consider checking out general areas on a pagan forum called The Cauldron. You'll find that there are a range of neo-pagan groups, each with its own set of beliefs--in some cases, based on intensive research into several ancestral traditions. Some of these can be regarded as witches, though not all, by any means.

As for myself, as I remarked above I've been an initiated witch for over 30 years. Whenever you decide not to be flip about my beliefs as a joke in advance of any discussion, I might decide to actually provide you with my own personal answer. But I suspect that won't happen for some time to come.

Well, the devil did bring us the knowledge of good and evil, freewill, freethinking, and the ability to loosen our bonds from a childish and maniacal super genie. He also apparently brought us science by planting all those fossils and manipulating our microscopes.

The devil is a convenient way of blaming others for everything we don't like, isn't it? If such a devil existed, I'd pity it, especially since it has done so much good (to hear the fringe hysteria types scream it) for humanity. Why, science is the devil's brainchild! Questioning itself--the whole of the critical apparatus--is apparently owed to the devil. Probably should give it a Nobel Prize for Everything, come to think of it.

[endboss]

As for myself, as I remarked above I've been an initiated witch for over 30 years. Whenever you decide not to be flip about my beliefs as a joke in advance of any discussion, I might decide to actually provide you with my own personal answer. But I suspect that won't happen for some time to come.

I was actually mocking the Christian view of witches who run around casting spells and invoking curses just for the sake of... I dunno... gaining Evil XP or whatever.

To draw an analogy, it would be like saying to an atheist (a term I associate with myself), "So how many layers is your super secret society that wants to turn humans into immoral monsters, and how many times a day to you face the Galapagos and pray to Darwin?"

[Ronan]

It's this sort of stuff that I can never believe. I just cannot imagine a person who would actually say stuff like this. It's not like I don't trust the sources I'm reading, but...but how can such people exist?

[fable]

I was actually mocking the Christian view of witches who run around casting spells and invoking curses just for the sake of... I dunno... gaining Evil XP or whatever.

To draw an analogy, it would be like saying to an atheist (a term I associate with myself), "So how many layers is your super secret society that wants to turn humans into immoral monsters, and how many times a day to you face the Galapagos and pray to Darwin?"

Fair enough. You'll live another day.

Although this material was scrubbed from Robertson's site by the end of day, it's only fair to mention that he regularly carries such stuff, and often broadcasts it. Back in the 1980s, he repeatedly called for the invasion of Mainland China because the inhabitants were demons who hated and killed Christians. This is a fringe, but a very vocal and well-monied fringe, and when you add up even the tiny percentage of people around the world who feel this way, they make a sizable throng. As I've often noted, there's no need for horror films if you want to simply contemplate humanity in all its glory.

[endboss]

Fringe? Most conservatives would love nothing more than to get into a war with China. They see our Asian friends as competitors and rivals; not as potential partners. They are guided by ideologies. Fortunately, businessmen are guided by the almighty dollar, and didn't let those Bush administration nutjobs get away with trying to provoke the dragon.

The real sad part is that all these religious groups are often exempt from actual laws and receive tax payer dollars to fund their proselytizing and other shenanigans. They'll make for excellent fodder in Valhalla.

[Fljotsdale]

I loathe religion from the botom of my heart. Not necessarily the believers, who are often (not always) very nice people; just the religions.

I am even prepared to believe that many of the clergy are perfectly nice, genuine, caring people. And that religion has some good points: it teaches people (theoretically, at least) to behave decently to others.

But, on the whole, religion stifles thought, and would like to return us all to the days of blind acceptance of the 'truth' in whatever form the religion sees it. Religion is still living at least two centuries in the past, and in some cases even in medieval times.

Religion is terrifying in its potential to destroy our society.

[fable]

Fringe? Most conservatives would love nothing more than to get into a war with China.

Most neo-cons would, yes. But many neo-cons are not religious conservatives, or even religious. Dubya's minister claimed he visited church once or twice a year, and his private remarks about it, reported in several books by former close aids, indicate he saw religion as a sucker's game.

But the religious fringe is not identical to the neo-cons, and neither is the same as the rank-and-file conservative. These are three very different groups engaged for various reasons in an unholy alliance in the US Republican Party, often jockeying for control, but closing ranks against any attempt to bring any other party to the fore.

They see our Asian friends as competitors and rivals; not as potential partners. They are guided by ideologies. Fortunately, businessmen are guided by the almighty dollar, and didn't let those Bush administration nutjobs get away with trying to provoke the dragon.

Complete and utter agreement that the neo-cons are like that. The organization they formed in the 1990s to pursue this policy had a large "plan for the 21st century" that included challenging China for dominance, after first securing numerous bases in MidEastern nations. They've reorganized since the disaster that was the Bush years, formed a new organization, and are pushing the same old BS. But again, they aren't the religious wing of the Republican party.

The real sad part is that all these religious groups are often exempt from actual laws and receive tax payer dollars to fund their proselytizing and other shenanigans. They'll make for excellent fodder in Valhalla.

The US government has always been unwilling to prosecute any religious organization for misuse of its 401(c)3 status as a non-profit, for fear of drawing down the anger of all religious organizations. This is behind the reason all those rightwing nutjob religious stations that still proliferate in the US in the lower end of the FM band, set aside for public radio stations. What makes a privately owned church a "public" organization? None I know of. But nobody wants to touch this, anymore than anybody in DC wants to deal with Israel's blatant disregard for UN regulations over Palestine. Some things are simply considered too sensitive by every government.

But, on the whole, religion stifles thought...

No, it really doesn't. A few particular religions, just like some governments, and many cultures, stifle thought of different kinds; many do not. (I'm sorry if this sounds abrupt, but if I'm not hearing people saying "religion is everything good," I'm hearing people stating, "religion is everything bad." And killing thought is at the head of the second list.) But if you want to have this thoughtful discussion, by all means, start up a thread and we can have at it.