Interesting Article

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 3:31 pm

word.

(Uh, but what do you think?!?!?!)

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 3:49 pm

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
The section stating "what comes around goes around" is saying....."I dont like what your doing so die". The logic is the same. This guy is trying and convicting the US in his own court and justifying the actions of the terrorists with his narrow and negative summary view of the american government and its policies. While he does condem the attacks every so often, the bulk of his article is blasting the US government.

That was not what he said, what he said was that you can not expect a person who (like in palestina) almost daily can se children killed in his own country, to shed tears of blood whenever something happen to USA

Disagreeing with government policies is nothing new. Attempting to justify a terrible third party action by blaming the government or society isnt either.(Tim Mcveigh, Ted Koczenski.sp?)

He did not juctify the terrorist attack, he tried to explain its roots in western colonial policies.

Does Mr. Roy expect the american people to disassemble our government, or accept responsibility for the blow delt by these radicals because people disagree with some of its policies? Is that democratic? Are you saying the US government is not perfect and that people should die? Are you perfect?
(say it with me)
The government will never be perfect.
The government will never be perfect.
You cant please everybody. You can only try.
You dont kill people because of it.

Killing people with diferent policies have atleast not been frowned upon by USA government in the past decades. You cant say that when the taliban regim perhaps is hiding terrorists that is a direct attack aginst USA but when USA are suppling money and weapons and training for terrorists(can you spell contras anyone?) that is just a minor flaw, and no one can be perfect.

Leaps of faith Mr.Roy???
That the enemy is who the government says they are and thier motives are what they say they are??? Are we supposed to believe you??? Are you the only one with the truth???
Someone who appears to be a radical from India.

To buy such a statement from any government is definatly a leap of fatih. He does not ask that you belivie him on this matter but rather point out that let people paint things in black and white for you are a dangerous path to walk.

In the purist form ..
Democratic Government = Citizens

And this "purest form" does not exist anywhere yet and are VERY far from existing in USA. What was the number that actualy voted in the latest presdent election? 30%? and all of them didnt even get their votes counted. You might think that if a person does not vote that is beacause he is generarly happy with things as they are but that are a very dengerous assumption. there are numerous other reasons why western democracys today are not perfect democracys but i wont argue about that now.

So pile Mr. Roy in with Bin Laden and everyone else second guessing and blaming the US for these happenings. The same people who fail to balance all the negatives with the positives. Failing to outline and weigh any good things done by the US government, its private agencies and its people throughout the world. Like the old song says "Accentuate the positive...".

How can you compare they author of this article with a terrorist? Usama(perhaps) have supported a action killing thousands of people and Arundhati Roy simpley tried to point out that the situation was not as simple as some might think.

And you cant motivate you bad actions with the phrase "i have done good things to"

Mr. Bush said either your with us or not. I suspect Mr. Roy is not.

Then i am aswell i sucpect.

Word · Post by **Word** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 3:53 pm

JAKER are you always trying to post in threads right after me?
i feel we must meddle because we hold Muslim and Jewish communities in the US so we must protect their intrests. Also we also meddle for the reason of black gold, oil. We have no steady supply other than the Middle east, and I don't believe in tearing up tundra which takes years to restore itself. I Wish we didn't have to but i believe since the creation of the Modern Middle East after WWII we must try to solve the problems of the region. This in no way means I support the "it's our fault theory" because that was the act of extremists who do not speak for millions of people or we would have had war long before this.

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 4:42 pm

I'm sorry, Word, I'm not tryin to bug you but I have this hard to resist urge to post "word." every time I see you post. I really am sorry, I'll try to restrain myself.

Dottie, it's rhetoric on your part to say that the writer of the article isn't justifying the attacks on New York. He didn't exactly say "the US was asking for it" or "the US deserved it" or "the US is just reaping what it has sown" but he basically made those exact points, and those points "justify" the attack, so I think it is fair to say that he in essence "justifies" the attack.

As I said before, it is very easy to tear down, not as easy to build up. What would you want done? It's not just the right that is upset with Afghanistan, western liberals are/have been at work in fundamentalist Muslim nations calling for women's and human's rights, too.

I find it interesting that Mr Roy holds America at fault for the works of "multinational" corporations who take over "the water we drink, the air we breathe, the thoughts we think" (if that's not rhetoric, i don't know what is) - isn't the whole point of the word "multinational" that it does not belong to any one nation? This is liberal-baiting in the extreme because we all know of the protests and problems over the WTO, is not Mr. Roy attempting to ally the terrorists in their attack on America's economic and political power with the liberals of the world in their battle with the evil "multinationals"?

[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: THE JAKER ]

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 5:45 pm

Originally posted by loner72:
My opinion is "devastating"??? Excuse me, but do you have to wash your hands every time you open your mail, over there in Denmark?...

Loner, I think there is no need to reply sarcastically to Xan's opinions even if they differ from yours. Personally, I fail to see how your fear of Antrax is connected to Xandax view on globalisation.

I tend not to look at things from a political perspective; I find it too cold and analytical. All I care about is whether some freak of nature starts pumping smallpox into ventilation systems, know what I'm saying?...

You seem to say that your opinions are based on personal fear - it's of course your choice, but even if you find policial questions "cold", I think they help us all to understand important phenomena in this world. Understanding dangers is very important if we want to reduce our personal fears as well as other, larger fears. Understanding the nature of a threat, will make it protect oneself from it. Then of course freaks and freak accidents will always happen, and those we can't protect ourselves from. You or your loved ones might get killed by a serial killer tomorrow - this, we cannot control.

I'm sorry to hear you are so worried, but I also understand it. Remember though that B Antracis is not as contagious as many people believe, and very few people die from it if they just get treatment early.

[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: C Elegans ]

der Moench · Post by **der Moench** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 5:50 pm

The article is political, and I, being a man of the cloth, tend to avoid these political debates...

But Rammstein has a SWEET website!

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 6:03 pm

Originally posted by loner72:
IMO -- get out of there altogether. I'm no politician and I don't understand how a lot of things work; but as I see it, the US has no business in that conflict to begin with. What are we doing involved in that mess?? What has it got to do with us???

How the US came to be involved in the Israel/Palestine issue is a long story, but in brief:

When the area was a British Mandate, the UK promised both sides a nation. In 1947 the UK handed the question over to the UN. The General Assembly was to vote about the issue.
To quete president Harry Truman:

"I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents." 

The UN proposed the creation of both a Palestine and an Israeli state. But in 1948 Israel occupied 77% of the Palestinian state. Jordan and Egypt occupied the rest. In the 1967 Israel took the remaining part of Palestine from Jordan and Egypt in the six day war.

EDIT: I really have layout problems today...

[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: C Elegans ]

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 6:59 pm

Originally posted by der Moench:
The article is political, and I, being a man of the cloth, tend to avoid these political debates...

What cloth?

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 12:44 pm

Buck,
I thought this one of the most interesting articles I've seen on the subject.

Things that have really bothered me:
That this war on terrorism will be indefinite. George Orwell said in 1984 that to keep a people under control you must have a perpetual state of war. Already our government has passed a bill giving the CIA, FBI, NSA and others more freedom than they've ever had to invade our privacy. What I'm wondering is after they've captured all the terrorists on our soil and they have nothing left to do...who will they go after then? I've watched over the years repeated attempts by the government to curtail privacy on the internet...think of the times they've tried to get people all riled up about child porn to pass laws allowing them unlimited access to our email accounts, etc. With the exception of the McCarthy Era, I don't think Americans have really experienced the kind of loss of freedom that I found common while living in Central America. I don't think Americans believe that can happen here. What if we're wrong?

Having lived in Central America, I can say I've seen first-hand the direct effect our policies have had on the people there. It made me ashamed. All I could tell people there was that I didn't vote for Reagan or Bush, SR, and that we don't elect the heads of the CIA or the Secretary of State or Defense. Yes, we are a democracy and have a lot of control over local issues, but I've felt that we have almost no control over foreign policy issues. Worse than that, we don't even seem to care. Our education system does little to teach us anything about the rest of the world. I can't believe that the only history courses required of us are American history. Most Americans have not even been educated on European history, let alone anywhere else. It's pathetic.

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 1:04 pm

@Dottie - Thanks for the rebuttal. I certainly understand your position.
This is a very scary turn of events for sure.
Convictions are strong on both sides. The fact that the US was dragged into this by years of attacks against us is always lost in the reasoning of motives. "Why did this happen." I say, "This happened, lets not allow it to happen again." That does involve understanding why it happened of course, but it does not involve appeaseing terrorists.

Just understand we can not tolerate attacks against our people for any reason. The fact is, someone ran some planes into our buildings and killed thousands of people. The people responsible for this must pay. Everything else doesnt matter. The author of the article says a bunch of mumbo jumbo about all the terrible things the US has done and why muslims hate us and so on. True or not true, to me, it is an attempt to justify the attacks. He also mentions that the US government is lying about what they know. I say, how does he know what they know? The government here is not some freestanding replicating entity. The govenment here is made up of sons and daughters of America with their sons and daughters futures depending on their judgement and actions. Why would they lie? Because they want to bring us to all out war against Islam as a whole? Why? What possible motivation could they have to lie? The only thing I think you should understand is that acts like this will not be met with concern for the attackers motives. Only concern for our safety. Terrorist attacks against the US have been going on for years. We've had enough. What are we to do Dottie? Bow to the demands of mad men? Search for reasons why our citizens deserve to die? Let a few thousand radicals shape american ideals and policy? The US government is ours to make or ruin, no one elses.

Americans are smart enough and informed enough to make their own decisions about what is right or wrong. We dont need to be spoon-fed by our government or president. I feel the speeches by Bush after the attacks were a mirror of the mood of the country. Again that mood says this cannot and will not happen without repurcussions. If we make a mistake in our reactions then so be it. Lets err on the side of action as opposed to waiting for the next few thousand citizens to be killed and hoping we can appease our attackers enough so they wont do it again the next time.

Admittedly, my view is pretty narrow regarding this matter. I have little patience for the justifiers of these events. The whole "yeah but the US did this and that is why they were attacked" argument is making a case in favor of the terrorists like it or not.
Also the "yeah but the US supplied Bin Laden and Afhganistan against the Russians and made them what they are" argument fails to mention that without US support, Afhganistan would not have been able to send the Soviets home.
This is how he thanks us? Aphganistan shows what these people are capable of if left to their own devices. Brutal governments, terrible living conditions, boys growing up wanting ony to be soldiers because they have no other options. Great job Taliban!!

You can certainly disagree with me Dottie. I hold no grudge for that. Yet once again I am compelled to ask people I argue with to state what they would do in this matter if you were GW Bush? I think I know already - nothing.

PS. Do you really think that if the Democrats had a real case regarding the correctness of the presidential elections they would have ever let GW take the oath? I suggest they would still be screaming.

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 2:05 pm

[ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 3:05 pm

Originally posted by Buck Satan:

Granted, destroying training camps and killing the terrorist leaders are short-term fixes, but I don't really think there is a definitive answer to ending the age-old problem of terrorism.

I believe you are right. I don't see any answer that will in the future stop a person/group from using terror to get their point across.

______________

______________

Now my rant. (Not directed at Buck

)

Every person, group and country has goals. When certain one of these feels it's point isn't being answered, the answer is terror. Try and get the other side to feel pain and terror. In their mind these acts are not wrong/evil, they are acts to get a point across. They are acts to deny people the freedom of deciding.

Should the US pull all of it's troops out of the middle east. Who else is willing to go there and keep peace? The UN? The first thing that will be said then is...the UN is controlled by the US.

Leave and let war reign? Who will get the blame for this? The US 'should' had saw it coming and stopped it.

Should the US let a democratic government be overrun by dictators? Ever hear of Hitler? If the US did, who would get the blame?

The one good thing about the US....the rest of the world has someone to blame.

While your doing the blaming....my great uncle turns in his grave.

MANNING, SIDNEY E.

Rank and organization: Corporal, U.S. Army Company G, 167th Infantry, 42d Division. Place and date: Near Breuvannes, France, 28 July 1918. Entering service at: Flomaton, Ala. Born: 17 July 1892, Butler County, Ala. G.O. No.: 44, W.D., 1919. Citation: When his platoon commander and platoon sergeant had both become casualties soon after the beginning of an assault on strongly fortified heights overlooking the Ourcq River, Cpl. Manning took command of his platoon, which was near the center of the attacking line. Though himself severely wounded he led forward the 35 men remaining in the platoon and finally succeeded in gaining a foothold on the enemy's position, during which time he had received more wounds and all but 7 of his men had fallen. Directing the consolidation of the position, he held off a large body of the enemy only 50 yards away by fire from his automatic rifle. He declined to take cover until his line had been entirely consolidated with the line of the platoon on the front when he dragged himself to shelter, suffering from 9 wounds in all parts of the body.

A life wasted.

[ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: Weasel ]

Word · Post by **Word** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 8:41 am

@Jaker you don't bother me i thought it was funny and was just wondering if you really do try.

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 11:32 am

word.