Alternative Medicines (serious - if possible)

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 pm

Originally posted by nael:
i didn't say it would really be good for you, just that it is used a lot.
everything from aphrodisiac to diabetes...

OK, I thought you meant you used it yourself. I know nothing about those beans, I hope people are not overusing them if they really do increase testosterone and dopamine levels.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:45 pm

Fable just the needle

nael · Post by **nael** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 3:01 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans:
OK, I thought you meant you used it yourself. I know nothing about those beans, I hope people are not overusing them if they really do increase testosterone and dopamine levels.

i did use them for a while as a supplement while lifting weights. worked really well, but i decided that i shouldn't screw around with my hormone levels and stopped taking them.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 3:06 pm

Originally posted by nael:
i did use them for a while as a supplement while lifting weights. worked really well, but i decided that i shouldn't screw around with my hormone levels and stopped taking them.

Yeah, from the sounds of it you have plenty enough testosterone already

nael · Post by **nael** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 3:13 pm

Originally posted by Georgi:
Yeah, from the sounds of it you have plenty enough testosterone already

hmmmmm...not sure how to take that...i am going to assume you meant it as an insult, but i'll take it as a compliment. maybe it's all that testosterone causing me to block otu the truth...

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 3:21 pm

Originally posted by nael:

hmmmmm...not sure how to take that...i am going to assume you meant it as an insult, but i'll take it as a compliment. maybe it's all that testosterone causing me to block otu the truth...

Ah, but deep inside you know the truth

Sorry for spamming your topic, Sleepy

I'm leaving now... *runs back to the pub*

thantor3 · Post by **thantor3** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 7:08 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
Has anyone ever used any alternative remeides, ie. Homeopathy, Acnipuncture (sp?) that sort of thing. Were they effective, did they help you in any way?

To answer Mr. Sleep's original question, I use alternative interventions every working day. Are they effective? It depends on your definition of both alternative medicine and effectiveness. In my practice, I use acupuncture, botanical medicine, nutritional interventions, Chinese medicine, counseling, physical medicine, and stress reduction techniques. If you are asking if a protocol based on these interventions helps people, I would say yes, about 85% of the time. I do not use homeopathy in my practice since it is a fairly intense area of study and if you do not put a great deal of time into it, your results will be uneven. Acupuncture is much more forgiving in that sense. It is unfortunate that they sell homeopathic remedies over the counter, since it implies that homeopathics work like drugs, which they decidedly do not.

If your definition of effectiveness is that they are cured of whatever ails them, then I am at a loss to answer since the endpoint of what constitutes "cured" varies greatly. Unfortunately, the term "alternative remedies" encompasses a host of substances that I would not consider medicinal and are in fact dangerous. In Chinese medicine, for example, the substance "cinnabar" is mercury. Quite toxic, yet it is used in several traditional formulas. IMO, the umbrellas term "alternative medicine" almost precludes the ability to have a meaningful discussion, because it includes things that I feel are not medicine at all, like psychic surgery. I prefer to address directly the system one is speaking to i.e. naturopathic medicine, Chinese medicine, chiropractic medicine, etc. since then a meaning conversation is possible.

Let me reply to a few comments:

Josh: IMO, the prescription medicine works faster.

Sure, in the way that a sledgehammer will work faster to open a bottle of wine that using a corkscrew. There is an appropriate place for rapid-acting agents in medicine. However, the fact that something acts faster is not a measure of its efficacy. I excellent example of this is the treatment of ear infections (otitis media) in children. Until recently, the standard treatment was to put them on antibiotics. Not only was this often ineffective, but it had the unfortunate effective of destroying essential bacteria in the gut that are necessary to digestion. In fact, antibiotics were so ineffective when used this way that the protocol for treating otitis media has changed. My point is that legitimate alternative methods allows the medical system more finesse and more opportunities for prevention. They do take longer but in many cases there is much less collateral damage.

Craig: i thought acupuncture for head aches would mean sticking a needle in your head

Many acupuncture meridians run the length of the body. An acupuncture meridian is the "vessels" that qi or life force run through as it circulates in the body. To use a hydraulic model, you can think of the qi as water and the meridians as pipes. The needles would then be like faucets that you can use to drain off overactive qi or close to allow more qi to circulate in the system. Thus you can place needles locally (in this case, on the head) and distally (in this case, in the foot). This is helpful because sometimes an area is too painful or inflamed to place a needle in.

CE: I am, as you all know, something of a sceptic. IMO alternative medicine should undergo the same controls as traditional medicine, to make sure there are no dangerous side effects.

Big topic but essentially we are in agreement here.

Why would an healthy person want to rise their testosterone and dopamine levels? I would never dare to manipulate my neuroendocrinology as long as I don't have any disease that change the natural balance in the systems.

*hug* I dub thee an honorary naturopathic physician for excellent insight and common sense.

thantor3 · Post by **thantor3** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 7:12 pm

Originally posted by nael:
the velvet bean (mucuna pruriens) is good for all sorts of things. there are a couple things it has been proven to raise in the body...testosterone and dopamine.

Some information on mucuna pruriens:

Mucuna pruriens (Cowhage)

There is insufficient reliable information available to rate the effectiveness of cowhage. However, there is preliminary evidence that some cowhage preparations might help improve symptoms of Parkinson's disease when used in combination with conventional drugs such as amantadine, selegiline, and anticholinergic agents. Cowhage is thought to work for Parkinson's disease because it contains a significant amount of levodopa (L-dopa). The whole cowhage bean contains about 3-6% L-dopa. Symptoms of Parkinson's disease occur in patients due to a depletion of the neurotransmitter dopamine. L-dopa is a precursor to dopamine. Some powdered cowhage seed preparations containing L-dopa seem to lessen symptoms of Parkinson’s disease at a relatively low dose, compared to conventional L-dopa products. Thus there is some speculation that constituents other than levodopa might have antiparkinson activity.

Cowhage also contains prurieninin, which might slow heart rate, decrease blood pressure, and stimulate intestinal peristalsis. Cowhage has also been reported to have antihelmintic (i.e. kills intestinal worms), antiflatulent (i.e. decreases explusion of gas), and cholesterol lowering properties, but these effects have not been verified in humans. Animal studies show that cowhage might lower blood glucose levels and possibly slow the development of diabetic nephropathy (i.e. damage to the kidney). There is interest in using cowhage for snakebite. Cowhage extract seems to have a procoagulant effect against the venom of the saw scaled viper (Echis carinatus), when given at least 24 hours prior to laboratory exposure to the venom.

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: thantor3 ]

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 7:23 pm

Stress reduction is an alternative therapy? I would have called it common knowledge for a long, long time.

thantor3 · Post by **thantor3** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 7:53 pm

Originally posted by fable:
Stress reduction is an alternative therapy? I would have called it common knowledge for a long, long time.

No, it's just something I use in my practice. I try to live on the edge, but not everything I do is alternative.

NCT · Post by **NCT** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 1:16 am

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
Serious, if possible Mr N.

Good cure for depression, LOL! Some would beg to differ.

Mr Sleep - I have tried accupuncture for headaches. It *really* works. At first, having a needle stuck in your foot or arm to alleviate a blinding headache seems strange. But it does work. I've only been able to get a friend to do it once or twice though - there's no point seeking/paying for it 'cos the headaches is usually gone by then.

Aromatherapy is neat too. Bet no-one thought I'd ever say that on GB.

Amazing!Words fail me.What next?

NCT · Post by **NCT** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 1:18 am

Originally posted by C Elegans:
Why would an healthy person want to rise their testosterone and dopamine levels? I would never dare to manipulate my neuroendocrinology as long as I don't have any disease that change the natural balance in the systems.

Natural balance and not any disease don't mix with the crowd here.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 7:39 pm

@Thanthor: Great post, highly enlightening

Also interesting to get a little peep into what kind of work you are doing.

Originally posted by thantor3:
Many acupuncture meridians run the length of the body. An acupuncture meridian is the "vessels" that qi or life force run through as it circulates in the body.

I don't know a lot about the concept qi force, but I know the neuroscience hypothesis why acupuncture eliminate pain. What is your opinion about the so called Gate theory? Is the qi concept consistent with the Gate theory, or are they conflicting? Do you use acupuncture for anything else than analgesia? Here, most large hospitals offer acupuncture as well as chiropractic treatment for patients with acute or chronic pain. Chiropractor is a licence profession, just like physisian, nurse, psychologist and physiotherapist, so it's not viewed as "alternative" any longer. I think it's the same in Norway and Denmark.

Big topic but essentially we are in agreement here.

Control of medicines is a very big topic indeed. And many countries, including the US, has IMO a far to sloppy and short control of of the effects of new academic medicines.

*hug* I dub thee an honorary naturopathic physician for excellent insight and common sense.

*hug* Thank you

I might be a representative of acedemic medicine in one sense since I work at Sweden's largest medical university, but even if I believe scientific method is a good way of gaining knowledge and find cures for many diseases, I also have very strong opinions about the drug industry, the FDA procedures, the political and economical aspects of traditional medicine and my red sheet: overmedication

Perhaps everybody else would be incredible bored, but personally, I would find it interesting to discuss the general question of overmedication in the Western world. In international comparison, Sweden is a very restricive country, but in certain areas, it's a problem here too. SSRI:s is a good example. The indications for prescriptions are much fewer in Sweden than in the US, but regardless of this, a recent study showed that during one year, SSRI:s were prescribed for over 300 different indications.

Another problem here is that many people believe that natural remedies are less potent than medicines from the drug industry. It's not uncommon that people toxicate themselves with fat soluble traces substances because they view it as vitamin pills.

A third interesting area is chemical substances in food. It seems like in the UK and the US many substances that are prohibited in food here, are not. Or the treshold values are much higher than here. I wonder why this is? Cultural reasons? Political?

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 7:42 pm

Originally posted by fable:
My wife and I both use Therapeutic Touch, which is now considered a standard medical treatment in many US hospitals. We also use Aromatherapy, but again, that's pretty standard these days.

What is the Therapeutic Touch?

nael · Post by **nael** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 11:18 pm

i have a hatred for chiropracty...for personal reasons...but on top of those, it is hard to take serious a profession that doesn't even believe in what they do.
every year, chiropracty professional organizations lobby congress and federal agencies to obtain the right to prescribe medicines. i know a lot of people that will go see one if their back hurts or their arm is aching, and most people think this is all chiropractors do, but the truth of their profession is that they believe that all ailments of the body, from pain to cancer, is caused from misalignments.
i do believe that alternative approaches to health have their uses, but they don't have near the efficacy of allopathic medicine.

in the state of texas, only MD's can practice acupuncture...but i don't think it is enforced.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Oct 27, 2001 2:01 pm

Originally posted by nael:
i have a hatred for chiropracty...for personal reasons...but on top of those, it is hard to take serious a profession that doesn't even believe in what they do.
every year, chiropracty professional organizations lobby congress and federal agencies to obtain the right to prescribe medicines. i know a lot of people that will go see one if their back hurts or their arm is aching, and most people think this is all chiropractors do, but the truth of their profession is that they believe that all ailments of the body, from pain to cancer, is caused from misalignments.
i do believe that alternative approaches to health have their uses, but they don't have near the efficacy of allopathic medicine.

in the state of texas, only MD's can practice acupuncture...but i don't think it is enforced.

Chiropractors are like any other medical profession, there are bad ones and there are good ones. I once saw a chiropractor who believed that realigning the spine was the panacea to all ills; I changed chiropractors.

Why is it that more "conventional" medical practitioners can perpetrate all kinds of abuse, and get away with it, while less "traditional" doctors get hammered any time that something goes wrong? I realise that malpractice suits occur against individual doctors, but it is rare that the profession is maligned as whole when this happens.

As an example, when a midwife-assisted homebirth goes wrong, "conventional" obstetricians scream blue murder, and at the fore of the ensuing media circus, they insist that the rights of midwives be revoked. Yet, if death or deformity occurs during a hospital birth, nobody challenges the seemingly divine right of obstetricians to continue "delivering" babies.

[ 10-27-2001: Message edited by: dragon wench ]

nael · Post by **nael** » Sat Oct 27, 2001 2:26 pm

Originally posted by dragon wench:
Chiropractors are like any other medical profession, there are bad ones and there are good ones. I once saw a chiropractor who believed that realigning the spine was the panacea to all ills; I changed chiropractors.

Why is it that more "conventional" medical practitioners can perpetrate all kinds of abuse, and get away with it, while less "traditional" doctors get hammered any time that something goes wrong? I realise that malpractice suits occur against individual doctors, but it is rare that the profession is maligned as whole when this happens.

As an example, when a midwife-assisted homebirth goes wrong, "conventional" obstetricians scream blue murder, and at the fore of the ensuing media circus, they insist that the rights of midwives be revoked. Yet, if death or deformity occurs during a hospital birth, nobody challenges the seemingly divine right of obstetricians to continue "delivering" babies.

[ 10-27-2001: Message edited by: dragon wench ]

yoru first chiropractor truly believed in chiropracty. most practicing chiropractors don't actually believe in it, which is why i said it is hard to take serious a profession/practice that doesn't even believe in itself.

and abotu your midwife example, OB's cry out against it when soemthign goes wrong, because midwives do not have the resources nor education to do anything if soemthign serious happens. for the majority of births, midwives would be fine, but i knwo my own mother would have definitely died had she gone to a midwife. another problem OB's have with midwives, is that a lot of people who would opt to use one, do not follow well established prenatal care. so things that could be prevented go unseen till it is too late.
and about malpractice suits...doctors almost never get sued, the hopsitals where they have admitting rights get sued, and even then hopsitals win about 70% of the cases. the only ones who ever truly win in any malpractice suit are the lawyers involved. and since the medical community is self policing, when credentialling takes place, only successful lawsuits are reported to the administration.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:01 pm

Originally posted by Georgi:
Sorry for spamming your topic, Sleepy

So you should be

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:04 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
So you should be

Ban the spammer!!! Ban the spammer!!! Ban the spammer!!! Ban the spammer!!! Ban the spammer!!! Ban the spammer!!! Ban the spammer!!! Ban the spammer!!! Ban the spammer!!! Ban the spammer!!!

Kidding. =) =>

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:12 pm

@Thantor, very interesting comments, my Brother thought you were showing off

But i thought it was very succinct and accurate, thankyou