Just finished PS:T A few comments *spoilers

sonny · Post by **sonny** » Sun May 24, 2009 7:50 pm

Just completed PS:T for the first time, using no walkthroughs and trying not to read any spoilers. When I got stuck (which was often

I posted my questions here and you guys got me on the right track)

This was a truly awesome game, which I look forward to playing again to see what I missed the first time through.

Now I have to struggle with myself over which game I like more PS:T or BG2:speech:

I do have one question that I hope some of you PS:T veteran players might be able to answer.
After returning from the Planes and going back UnderSigil and get the items off the Greater Glabrezu (I was only able to get 2 after trying for 4 hours), why didn't they make these items available earlier in the game. When you get them that late, they are kinda of useless.

Well, I was going to start BG2 again, but my wife brought me Icewind Dale The Ultimate Collection for Christmas and every time she comes in my den, she wants to know why I'm not playing the game she got me

Again, thanks everyone for all the help. Will be over in the IWD forums if and when I get the game running.
Sonny

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:22 am

I guess they didn't give you the items earlier because they are so powerful. It's not that PS:T's combat is the most difficult ever created.
There's a patch (I believe one of Qwinn's) that makes the Greater Glabrezu's available when your first enter Undersigil. IIRC, they also drop those items.
Personally, I find PS:T the better game, since it's deeper, has more character development and offers true choice. It also is less "bland"/"classis" fantasy than BG2. (Note: In no way am I saying that BG2 is a bad game.

)

Zondark · Post by **Zondark** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:54 pm

@ GawainBS:

I agree to a certain extent. PS:T has the greatest story, characters, and setting of any game, in my opinion, and I'll often find myself gawking in amazement at just how original and well-written, not to mention emotionally involving, it truly is. However, my gripe with PS:T is that it relies too heavly on dialogue to move the game forward, neglecting the combat and other gameplay aspects in the process. I can understand why the average gamer would be turned away when s/he is forced to read an entire novel before even leaving the first building (I'm exaggerating, of course).

BG2, on the other hand, manages to balance the combat, story, and other gameplay elements almost perfectly. There's also greater flexibility when it comes to creating, levelling, and generally customising your character, and the exploration of the game's world is much less restrictive than PS:T's. The story, characters, and setting are pretty damn great, too, though nowhere near the level of PS:T, admittedly.

Regardless of my comments above, BG2 and PS:T are both fantastic games in their own right, and they occupy the top two slots on my all-time list. I just happen to believe that BG2 works better as a video game and therefore, is the better game of the two.

@ sonny:

Icewind Dale is a pretty enjoyable series, yet it fails to meet the standards set by the aforementioned games, if you ask me. It's much more battle-oriented and... it's still a good series, don't get me wrong. Just don't set your expectations too high.

Oh, and remember to download the Heart of Winter update (v1.42) for Trials of the Luremaster (I thought this little side story was better than actual expansion itself!).

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:00 pm

Zondark wrote:However, my gripe with PS:T is that it relies too heavly on dialogue to move the game forward, neglecting the combat and other gameplay aspects in the process. I can understand why the average gamer would be turned away when s/he is forced to read an entire novel before even leaving the first building (I'm exaggerating, of course).

Welcome to GameBanshee, Zondark. Glad you could join us.

I have to ask: did you play the game as a dumb fighter, or as a smart and wise fighter/mage? Because from what I've read over the years, a lot of players come to the game having read in tips how many more opportunities there are for experience or at the very least responses if their characters are smart. This also means they get around at least a few potential battles. I can't help thinking this contributes to the idea that PS:T lacks combat.

As for having too much dialog, it's worth us all remembering that PS:T wasn't aimed at today's Oblivion kiddie market. Its creators figured on a literate, intelligent audience of older teens and adults, capable of understanding its theme, its overarching sense of irony, its characterizations. I don't think they can be reasonably criticized for failing to reach a group they weren't aiming for. But that's just my interpretation.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:29 am

Zondark, I agree to the extent that PS:T did not have enough combat, but it certainly hadn't too much dialogue. It's kind of frustrating to have al those high level spells and not being able to use them frequently, especially given the cool animations. (I don't count the final combat, since, well, you know...)

Zondark · Post by **Zondark** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:19 am

@ fable:

Thanks for the welcome.

I've completed PS:T a number of times now, and in several different ways. However, I've come to find that the most rewarding experience is to play with as high a wisdom (and probably charisma and intelligence) stat as possible. As I'm sure you know, this will offer greater opportunity for fully uncovering The Nameless One's past, your companions' pasts, attaining higher stat scores, opening more interesting dialogue options, etc. - all of which makes for a lot more text to digest. Even so, it's not my opinion that PS:T lacks combat per se, rather that it takes a back seat to the story and dialogue and... well, reading. So much so, that I've heard people refer to PS:T as more of an interactive novel than a video game.

Now, I know I labelled it a "gripe", but the truth is I have no problem with PS:T's copious amounts of text. Yet, that's not to say some of the text couldn't have been "substituted" or better integrated into the gameplay instead, and this is where I feel BG2 triumphs over PS:T. It better integrates the plot points and character interactions into the gameplay - rather than forcing the player to read pages upon pages to progress - while at the same time, allowing the freedom of choice that PS:T offers through its dialogue (... This making sense?).

Some might say that PS:T wouldn't be as deep and impactful were it not so verbosely written, and I'm inclined to agree. Though, as I said earlier, having to read so much tends to bog down the game somewhat, and I do feel that BG2 strikes a better balance, which is much more suited to the video game medium, in my opinion.

P.S. Oh, and sorry for the incredibly late reply. Had quite a bit of interwebz trouble of late...

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:59 am

BG2 has the problem that it offers very few real, meaningful choices.

Zondark · Post by **Zondark** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:39 pm

@ GawainBS:

You sure about that ? The choices you make in BG2 decide what path you take towards Irenicus, how your companions and the world perceives you, and ultimately, your destiny when it comes to assuming the Throne of Bhaal. How is that not meaningful?

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:58 pm

Apart from the Shadow Thieves/Vampires, you don't influence anything. Sure, the ending can be different, but that's hardly unique to BG2. It doesn't change what you get to do/see in the game.
Keep in mind we're comparing BG2 and PS:T. PS:T can offer a vastly different experience, depending how you play it each time. The biggest difference BG2 offers, is in the class your protagonist plays. But that's not a change to the story.
I don't say BG2 is bad in anyway, but keep it in perspective.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:23 pm

Zondark wrote:Now, I know I labelled it a "gripe", but the truth is I have no problem with PS:T's copious amounts of text. Yet, that's not to say some of the text couldn't have been "substituted" or better integrated into the gameplay instead, and this is where I feel BG2 triumphs over PS:T. It better integrates the plot points and character interactions into the gameplay - rather than forcing the player to read pages upon pages to progress - while at the same time, allowing the freedom of choice that PS:T offers through its dialogue (... This making sense?).

I know what you mean, though I personally disagree. This isn't a case of you're wrong/I'm right, but that I come to the game from the standpoint that I'm delighted to play a game that deliberately sets out to turn some many RPG expectations on their heads: a game where combat is secondary to self-discovery. Where a standard game cliche--recovery from death with no or little loss--becomes instead the curse you're trying to solve. Where you keep running into people you've hurt before, who always seem to want to do you a good turn. And so on.

Some might say that PS:T wouldn't be as deep and impactful were it not so verbosely written, and I'm inclined to agree.

Would you feel differently if the game were remade today using voice technology, so that instead of reading a fair amount of material, you could hear the thoughts and words of the characters?

Though, as I said earlier, having to read so much tends to bog down the game somewhat, and I do feel that BG2 strikes a better balance, which is much more suited to the video game medium, in my opinion.

I can hardly disagree with the fact that you've pointed out my two favorite RPGs. We just have them in a different order.

Hellwalker · Post by **Hellwalker** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:24 pm

I can't for the life of call PT texts too much, everytime I played I seemed to take it all "in single breath". I can't explain how but it didn't even feel like reading.

Its all so unique and full of depth, my mind .. how to say. It all came to *LIFE* with my imagination without me putting any conscious effort into it. When I think of any part of the game, I remember it as if I watched cinematic like in Lok, MGS, etc rather then read text.

of and I actually was disappointed with *lack* of text and story

I mean after ravel maze. Planes had so much more to tell! damn the deadlines.

Box Lump · Post by **Box Lump** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:58 pm

Sorry, double post.

Box Lump · Post by **Box Lump** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:01 pm

Baldur's Gate is a blast to play and has some classes and abilities that I haven't seen in any other game. The only big problems I have with its gameplay come from using 2nd Edition D&D rules. Magic seems to dominate the game to such an extent that you can literally magic missile dragons to death without much effort, IIRC, but it's still fun even if you're not using a lot of arcane spellcasters.

However, I don't like the way BG II forces you along certain paths and (spoiler)

Spoiler

forces good and neutral characters into making a certain set of decisions in the Trials before the fight with Irenicus. If you don't make these exact decisions, you turn neutral evil, even if you've done nothing but save innocent people and fight the forces of evil for the entire game.

(end of spoiler) You can make some decisions, like which group to join at the start, whether the protagonist's personality is basically good or evil, and in some cases how to finish a quest, but the plot isn't nearly as sensitive to your decisions as Torment's is.

Even with all the complaints, I think it's a good story. It might not be on par with Beowulf, but it's fun and interesting enough for me to want to see the end of the game.

The only other thing that really bugs me is the dullness of some of the NPCs. I really like playing with some of them. Minsc, Jan, and Lilarcor in particular have some hilarious dialogue when placed together. Aerie has some funny interactions with other characters if you can put up with her. But there are too many characters that don't seem to have any development or personality to them. Some of them are required for a couple of the game's more interesting side quests, which makes their dullness even more annoying.

Planescape is very different from Baldur's Gate. It has one of the best storylines I've ever seen in a video game and an equally good cast of characters. It's also very low on combat, at least in my experience playing a mage with nearly-maxed dialogue-related stats. I've been told that it's more action packed with a fighter, but I doubt it's ever as combat oriented as Baldur's Gate 2 or Icewind Dale.

I love the weird areas and enemies the game makes you fight. If the combat was as fun as it is in Baldur's Gate, I'd probably replay it more often than any of my other RPGs. The variety of armor and weapons is tiny and the characters don't reach very high levels, making combat a little unexciting for me.

The strong points of both games are more than enough to make up for their faults.