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C Elegans
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Post by C Elegans »

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
I'm not quite sure what to make of this. Did I say anything inappropriate?
:confused: Now I am really sure there must be something going on here that I don't understand... :(

Inappropriate? No, was just trying to introduce another factor in why baggy clothes are more popular among US women than Latino women...WTF is going on here???

:( :( :(
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Post by HighLordDave »

My apologies to all; I apparently misread C Elegan's post about eight back that ended with "Just a thought @Gwally and Fable".

It sounded to me that she was saying that Gwalchmai was being superficial in the way he looked at the local girls. My point was that people dress that way because they want to be looked at as objects in the initial stages of searching for a partner or while they're out in public and that the way people dress in a business setting is different than the way they dress socially.

This was my mistake; again I apologise for the confusion.
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Post by C Elegans »

@HLD: There must have been something erraneous with my way of expressing myself, since Gwally also reacted...Can you explain to me what is was that made you react, it's good to know for the future...

For instance, does "Just a thought" mean something else than just a thought, could it also be interpreted like, sarcastic or ironic?
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Post by Gwalchmai »

Originally posted by C Elegans
:confused: Now I am really sure there must be something going on here that I don't understand... :(

Inappropriate? No, was just trying to introduce another factor in why baggy clothes are more popular among US women than Latino women...WTF is going on here???
Well, see? That's what I thought, but then it looked like HLD was jumping to my defence, and I didn't get it. Sounds like we are all equally confused. :rolleyes: :D

My observations on women's business attire appear to run contrary to your observations, CE. I think maybe a decade ago, certainly during the 80s, there was a trend for powerful businesswomen to dress as a-sexually as possible. I think that has been decreasing of late, and that business attire has become more casual and conditioned more by personal taste. Now, this may be due to the place where I currently live, which as I said, is very hot, Caucasians do not dominate the culture, and the official neckwear of the State is the Bolo Tie. :rolleyes:

However, I do not have good comparative data, as I don’t know many businesswomen on a casual basis. So, I don’t know how their style at home compares to their style of dress at work. It may be that what I consider to be more casual and feminine styles of business dress, may be considered downright frumpy when compared to what these same women wear on the weekends. Perhaps if I were to see them at home, my eyes might literally burn up inside my head. :eek:
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Post by fable »

I can't say that I saw CE's comments as being intended as a corrective, earlier. I thought they were meant as an "in-addition." But the lack of tone probably contributed to the misundestanding.

Returning to the subject, I'm still not sure I fully agree with @Gwalchmai's remark about body type leading (or at least, indicating the general direction) to clothing fashions, but the more I think about it, the more it has appeal as a factor in the mix. Certainly, there are many body types in Asia and Europe where hips are relatively narrow. (Yes, I know this is a generalization. ;) ) Tight-fitting dresses might not make much of an impression on that build (and I wonder if the bustle came into Northern Europe and the US as a correction for that?), but certainly tight jeans would, by outlining all the assets regardless of size.

Certainly the current US fad for shapeless, baggy clothing does nothing for ectomorphic builds like my own. Fortunately, I've got an indulgent wife; and when I complained about the bizarre selection of shorts available at local stores (and to be honest, tried on several, which she laughed at), she made me a couple of pairs that fit well. She also made me a pair of pants tailored to a slim look. (She's a long-time quilter, and knows dress-making.) Wearing a pair of Dockers, you wouldn't know whether I'm approaching or leaving. There's no doubt in these. They're not incredibly tight, just snug in the right areas. :D
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Post by HighLordDave »

Originally posted by C Elegans
For instance, does "Just a thought" mean something else than just a thought, could it also be interpreted like, sarcastic or ironic?
Sometimes, "just a thought" really does mean "just something to think about", but my personal association is that it has sarcastic or patronising connotations. There's probably no one else who read your post the same way I did, so I am going to blame the South Carolina sun for frying my brain last week.
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by HighLordDave


Sometimes, "just a thought" really does mean "just something to think about", but my personal association is that it has sarcastic or patronising connotations. There's probably no one else who read your post the same way I did, so I am going to blame the South Carolina sun for frying my brain last week.
As the I Ching repeatedly asserts, "No blame attaches." :D
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Post by Gwalchmai »

Originally posted by fable
I'm still not sure I fully agree with @Gwalchmai's remark about body type leading (or at least, indicating the general direction) to clothing fashions, but the more I think about it, the more it has appeal as a factor in the mix. Certainly, there are many body types in Asia and Europe where hips are relatively narrow. (Yes, I know this is a generalization. ;) ) Tight-fitting dresses might not make much of an impression on that build (and I wonder if the bustle came into Northern Europe and the US as a correction for that?), but certainly tight jeans would, by outlining all the assets regardless of size.
I completely agree. Body shape, as well as cultural factors (or sub-culture), situation (at work, at home, or trolling for attention), age, sefl-respect, etc. all are factors in clothing choices. I would be hard pressed to define the one over-riding factor.

Interesting hypothesis on the bustle....
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Post by Gwalchmai »

Ah, as we suspected...

"Fashionable women's dress in the era of the 1870's and 1880's, while looking quite modest to modern eyes, was viewed as unashamedly erotic in it's own day. The bustle, the cornerstone on which women's dress depended, focused the majority of the decoration and clothing focus on a woman's backside, and emphasized the movement of that body part to heroic proportions."

citation

It seems the key to the bustle was that it emphasized a certain erotic movement of the backside. It is possible that the modern girl's style of baggy pants has a similar effect? I know we have noted that baggy pants cover up and cause shapelessness, but doesn't the bustle do the same? Could we venture that baggy pants are the modern-day equivalent of the bustle? :eek:

I honestly don't know. I haven't examined the movement-enhancing aspects of baggy pants in any detail. Rest assured, I will certainly make a careful study next time I go to the mall. ;) :cool:
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Post by C Elegans »

Good that the confusion is cleared up, bad, bad HLD ;) , I really thought I had said something terribly wrong there without knowing it. Maybe I should avoid using that particular expression ("just a thought").

Back to topic:

@Gwally: Interesting, here I would say it's rather the other way around. To generalise, during the 80's, many businesswomen and other female professionals, wore lots of smart dresses and high heels. Probably as a reaction against the 70's bra-burning and potato sack style, the female gender role developed into "equal although I am feminine" ideal, where women felt they didn't want to repress their feminine looks in order to be viewed as equal to men. This fashion declined during the 90's, where at the same time the dress code became more and more leisure for both men and women also in a professional context. Teenage girls here all wear tight jeans and tiny tops, but among professional women, you very rarely see this. Personally, I only know professional women, and many of them are in male dominated areas. I have no statics, only anecdotal evidence, but the anecdotal evindence unfortunatly support the view that many women feel they have to choose between looking "feminine" and "sexy", or being taken as professional and equal. My best friend for instance, she is tall and slim and has this fashion model type of looks. She used to dress in tight jeans, short skirts and dresses etc - until a few years ago when she got the job she has presently. She is a computer technician, and when she started this job, it was her and 50 guys (now they are - gasp - three women). Sadly, it was all very much like one's prejudices would predict. I was amazed to hear adult men behaving like teenagers. She was so unhappy with all the sexist comments regarding her looks, so she started to change her dressing style into a very neutral, IMO boring look, that excluded make-up, skirts and tight clothes.
Another of my friends, she's an architect, and a small, curvy blond in Marilyn Monroe-style. Same story - she also altered her clothing style because she got tired of all the degrading comments.

In my own field, I have noticed that most women choose very neutral clothes, often a baggy sweater/T-shirt and baggy trousers or a long, wide skirt. Frankly, most women I have met in neuroscience, look like old hags although they are 30. During discussion with female colleagues, I have understood that many feel they are taken less serious if they look otherwise. Unfortunately I have collected some evidence that supports this, since I know 2 very successful female researchers who look very feminine and sexy, and I have heard how some people talk about them. This, in combination with my personal experiences of critisism for my looks during my education, has led me to chose an opposite way. Should somebody complain about my clothing style and looks (which many have done, but mostly women in my case), well then - they just have to wait and see. To me (I know this sounds ridiculous and childish) it is sort a statement that I refuse to change the way I look to avoid sexism. Should I get the Nobel prize tomorrow (: rolleyes: very likely, of course) I would probably go to the city hall and receive it in a golden bra with a see through blouse. :D ;)
Originally posted by fable
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Post by HighLordDave »

Originally posted by C Elegans
Good that the confusion is cleared up, bad, bad HLD ;)
I think I'll start a "Kick HighLordDave while he's down" thread, but the catch is that only women wearing spandex or leather can post in the thread . . .
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Post by fable »

I would probably go to the city hall and receive it in a golden bra with a see through blouse.

Hopefully with a pair of seed pearl, see-through panties. As Jerry Colonna (who was not just a fine comic, but an excellent big band trombonist) repeatedly exclaimed, "I can dream, can't I?" ;)

As it happens, I helped my wife choose her clothes when she took a new job half a year ago. At that time, she went to work as a Meditech consultant for a big hospital consultancy firm, and has been sent to help out the hospital software/hardware system for the state of Massachusetts. (She's gone 3 1/2 days, and back the other 3 1/2.) Since she was moving from a position in hospital-based Infomatics to that of a consultant with a strong public relations side, clothing needs shifted. I suggested plenty of "power suits," relatively unadorned but assertive and attractive, with a single piece of jewelry. She liked the idea. :) So far, she seems to think the choices have been a great success.

I'll pass along to her the idea of a golden bra. Actually the red lace one she has...oh, but nevermind. :)
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Post by frogus »

Originally posted by C Elegans
Should I get the Nobel prize tomorrow (: rolleyes: very likely, of course) I would probably go to the city hall and receive it in a golden bra with a see through blouse. :D ;)
*Posts his vote for Nobel Prize 2002*

(EDIT) and for my first encore - Am I the only one who thinks women's suits are nasty? I simply think that the jacket/skirt combo is an unelegant one, and all women's suits that I have witnessed seem to look like a poor compromise... :( Maybe I just have bad taste :rolleyes:
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by frogus
Am I the only one who thinks women's suits are nasty? I simply think that the jacket/skirt combo is an unelegant one, and all women's suits that I have witnessed seem to look like a poor compromise... :( Maybe I just have bad taste :rolleyes:
@Frogus, perhaps it has to do with how you visualize the phrase "women's suits." I think of it in the widest terms possible, until qualified by a specific social setting. My wife's suits, for instance, are stylish, and at least one I find very attractive: a charcoal grey, pin-striped affair, with close-cut trousers (mrrrrrooow :) ).

Now, if you're thinking of shapeless affairs, or the kind of thing Aunt Bee used to Wear on the Andy Griffith Show, I couldn't agree more. ;)
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Post by fable »

Bump! I'd still like to hear Frogus' reply. :)
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Post by C Elegans »

Originally posted by frogus
*Posts his vote for Nobel Prize 2002*

(EDIT) and for my first encore - Am I the only one who thinks women's suits are nasty? I simply think that the jacket/skirt combo is an unelegant one, and all women's suits that I have witnessed seem to look like a poor compromise... :( Maybe I just have bad taste :rolleyes:
Unfortunately one can only vote for the Nobel Peace prize :D

I think women's suits with jacket and skirt/trousers can look both elegant and attractive, but often those that do are very, very expensive. Thierry Mugler, the French designer, made great looking haute coiture suits with a very tight fit and unusual cutting. I of course can't afford them, but if I did, I'm sure it would look good.

Much of the suits you find in normal shops look horrible though, any woman would look like an old hag in them.
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Post by Mr Sleep »

Originally posted by C Elegans
any woman would look like an old hag in them.
LOL CE, you have a wonderful way with words :D :)

Personally the suit is something i just don't find sexy on a woman, neither shirt and tie, it just looks wrong ;)
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Post by Gwalchmai »

Actually, I've seen some suit-like women's styles that knock my socks off! Jacket open down to the navel with nothing underneath (or maybe some transparent lace)... Mmmmmm. :D
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Post by Bloodstalker »

I like it when they are wearing a dress shirt in the morning :D
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Post by Ned Flanders »

and nothing else, right BS? :D
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