Attack on Afghanistan

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 4:22 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans:
@Lazzarus: Good bye, see you later

Sweden and Norway was a union until 1917. Historically, we have been the same country for a much longer time than not. If Norway and Sweden was at war, if would be very beneficial for Sweden to let surrender immedieatly. We are the same culture, the same people and has the same constitution. But Norway has a h*ll of a lot of oil money, lower taxes, higher salaries and the best social welfare system in the world. (If you need really expensive health care like complicated surgery, go to Norway as a tourist and get ill there. All healthcare are for free, even for tourists)

You can bet that if English was the national language of Norway, we'd be there. Everything I've heard about the government and lifestyle is amenable to my wife and myself. Even the ludafisk is bearable.

Perhaps we could get kidnapped by Norwegian paratroopers. I would be willing to waive consular assistance.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 4:57 pm

BTW my mom and her parents went to Afghanistan in the mid 70's. She said it was a wonderful place. With possibly the world's best fruit. Kabul was a great city, but now its ruins.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 4:59 pm

Another thing too add.

My grand-uncle was quoted 3 times in the Newsweek with bin laden on the cover. 3 times! he's pretty proud of himself. on an internationl news magazine.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 5:14 pm

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
BTW my mom and her parents went to Afghanistan in the mid 70's. She said it was a wonderful place. With possibly the world's best fruit. Kabul was a great city, but now its ruins.

I have a really soft spot for mountains, and Afghanistan has quite a few of those. I hope there will be peace there at some point, so I can go there with my wife. Hopefully the fruittrees have survived

On what was your grand uncle quoted?

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 5:16 pm

BBC is reporting that the Israeli's are trying to distance themselves from the issue of the US involvement with Israel being the cause of the terrorist attacks. When I looked for the UN articles above, I also found [url="http://www0.un.org/News/Press/docs/1996/19961127.gaspd103.html"]this[/url]. It's a resolution regarding the Israeli settlers in Palestinian areas. If you look at the votes, there are always two or three nations against, where two of these always consist of Israel and the US. Browsing through a number of other resolutions, the pattern repeats.

Sharon has again managed to postpone his hearing regarding warcrimes against Palestinians during 1982. See [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1577000/1577630.stm"]BBC news[/url]. Fable, I hope you're wrong about GWB rolling over, since it would make the US position in the Middle East a lot worse than it was before the terrorist attack. The Israeli's have taken the opportunity to go hard at the Palestinians, so anyone siding with Israel today is no longlasting friend of any Arab nation.

[ 10-07-2001: Message edited by: Silur ]

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 6:01 pm

@Silur, I'm afraid this has been traditionally the case in US politics. The American Jewish vote, rightly or wrongly, is seen as tied directly to support for official Israeli policy, and no US government (with one exception, already mentioned) in recent times has bucked this--whether out of conviction (Reagan, Clinton) or fear of losing popular support by home (Dubbyah). Even George Sr was initially in the "Israel: Yes" camp. He only switched sides whenever he saw anybody as picking on him. The Elder Bush is a very mean-spirited man.

The US has never joined in a vote of condemnation in the UN for any Israeli action. With all the gains made to MidEast foreign policy by the US during and after the Gulf War, everything was once again sacrificed on the altar of Israeli votes--well, that and the seeming obsession with Sadam Hussain, and the (unintentional) destruction of the Iraqi people.

A smart US government would find some means of shifting its Iraqi policy, and distancing itself reasonably from Sharon. But noooooo....

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 6:54 pm

People are being buried alive over there, and you people are worried about fruit trees?!?!?!?!....................

Well, to answer that concern, I'd say it's a good bet there aren't many fruit trees left, since the Afghan people are currently starving to death in large numbers

[ 10-07-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 7:13 pm

Originally posted by loner72:
People are being buried alive over there, and you people are worried about fruit trees?!?!?!?!....................

@Loner, I suspect some people see the fruit trees of Afghanistan as symbolic of happier times, when the people were well-fed and lived in comparative peace.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:16 am

Thorin people are naturally baised and subjective.
When you watch the news or read an article, it is baised.
There is no way around it.

Loner72 do you believe everything you find on the net?
Do you believe everything on the RAWA website?
Can you verify all the news they post?
I will continue when you have answered these questions.

CE Hekmatyar - the PM of the exile govt - was an excellent leader, he had the support of the people and had a great deal of military support from the Pakistani and US govt.
However he did not do much.
My knowledge is limited on him but my respect is not.
However having him back will be adding a 4th group to an already problomatic issue.
I think the US should not choose who should lead the nation.
Let the people do that.

hmm anybody left?
I will not comment on the Israel issue, as i am a muslim hold extremely hardline views on Sharon.
I will most likely offend all folks of the jewish faith if i start.

So please don't nobody ask.
I will answer all questions to the best of my abilities on Afghanistan.

Xandax the reason why India is aggitated is because Pakistan is back in the US camp ie it will get a lot out of this war.
Pakistan being a smaller country has always relied on bigger friends to provide it with hi-tech weaponary and political clout.
That is why we balanced a fine line between China and the US till 1990.
Now we have the US asking us for help and the indians are happy.
A times of India article covered a story where India had asked not to be added with Pakistan in getting rid of any sanctions.
India has 140 million muslims.
They should worry how those people will react.

If i missed anything please tell me i will cover it later.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:51 am

A quick update from BBC News London, Capital Radio and ITN News London...a number of Western journalists have been taken hostage in Pakistan, where police have had to use tear gas against pro-Bin Laden rioters on the streets.

20 known deaths. Bin Laden, as far as is known, has escaped injury...

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Yshania ]

Harry2052 · Post by **Harry2052** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:01 am

hey Ysh ... hows it going

harry

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:52 am

Hope the coalition can end this quick.

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: at99 ]

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 6:31 am

Originally posted by Silur:
I have a really soft spot for mountains, and Afghanistan has quite a few of those. I hope there will be peace there at some point, so I can go there with my wife. Hopefully the fruittrees have survived

On what was your grand uncle quoted?

I don't care about fruit, nor does she.
I'm saying it was a wonderful country back then.

The quotes: (I'm sure none of you guys know what he is talking about, but maybe FAS will)

"General Zia made a conscious effort to Islamize the pillars of society and the Army too"

"He wanted to draw legitimacy from the process of Islamization"

The first two deal with Zia ul-Huq, an unpopular genral who screwed up Pakistan.

"The Army is very unified no"
"But the seeds are there and they could germinate"
The 3rd and 4th quotes deal with the fact if the US attacks the Pakistani Amry may totter.

This was taken from the Newsweek of Oct 1.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 6:47 am

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:

I don't care about fruit, nor does she.
I'm saying it was a wonderful country back then.

If there is ever peace there, perhaps it will be beautiful again. After numerous wars, Afghanistan is probably terribly scarred.

The quotes: (I'm sure none of you guys know what he is talking about, but maybe FAS will)

"General Zia made a conscious effort to Islamize the pillars of society and the Army too"

"He wanted to draw legitimacy from the process of Islamization"

The first two deal with Zia ul-Huq, an unpopular genral who screwed up Pakistan.

"The Army is very unified no"
"But the seeds are there and they could germinate"
The 3rd and 4th quotes deal with the fact if the US attacks the Pakistani Amry may totter.

This was taken from the Newsweek of Oct 1.

Your Grand-uncle seems very knowledgable of the region. I don't envy the Pakistani President Musharraf, he's really in a vice.

If you don't mind me asking; What connection do you and your family have with Pakistan? You said once that you used to live nearby.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 6:55 am

I used to live there. My family is/was a quite prominent family.
My father's father has an airforce base named after him.
My grand uncle was a genral and then some politician in the 70's. There others too.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 7:27 am

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
I used to live there. My family is/was a quite prominent family.
My father's father has an airforce base named after him.
My grand uncle was a genral and then some politician in the 70's. There others too.

Then I understand why you know so much and seem to care so much for the region. I think you identify easier with people and countries you actually have been in. Is anyone you know still living there?

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 7:34 am

at99 writes:
It was reported on Fox news that the middle eastern countries have no free press. Everything is government controlled. They are also fed a lot of 'hate America' stuff. They are told that all there economic problems are caused by the US.

See how brainwashed people happen!

Brainwashing-by-media is not the sole perogative of government-controlled press. In the US, for example, we entered the Spanish-American War because of a personal campaign run by the owner of the Hearst News Syndicate; and you're free to check this.

We also regularly make important decisions that influence and elect politicians based on whomever has the most money to put behind the best advertising minds in the largest number of media venues. Where government doesn't rule the media, currency does. And since the media can be bought, it is simply available to the highest bidder, providing the same kind of "brainwashing" tactics that you complain about, above.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 8:17 am

On the charge of deliberate desinformation, I believe almost all free world media are guilty. It is merely an effect of competition, and in the interest of ratings/sold copies it might be worth it to once in a while throw in something spectacular but wildly inaccurate, and then put a three line correction/apology at the bottom of page 2189 the next day. The tabloid press is of course the worst, but they're not monopolizing on this tactic.

When it comes to media brainwash, there are much more insidious issues than upfront manipulation. The subtle messages regarding how you should look to be cool, what to wear, which stereotypic groups you supposedly belong to which you see in social interraction are amplified by media. Articles like "Are you a xx type of person?" or "What is typical male/female behaviour", etc, are nothing but conservation of stereotypes. In the bad old days, when I wasn't paying enough attention, I was as influenced (or worse) by this as "the next guy" (= stereotypical normal person

).

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 11:19 am

Originally posted by Fas:
Loner72 do you believe everything you find on the net?
Do you believe everything on the RAWA website?
Can you verify all the news they post?
I will continue when you have answered these questions.

First off, Fas, I'm not stupid. I don't know how old you think I am but I'm not a child by any means. I have an education. I'm not gullible and I have the common sense not to believe everything that is spoon-fed to me.

Secondly: Why would RAWA lie? What reason would they have?? These are women who risk death and many of them have been killed to garner this information. By the same token, can you prove that their information is false?? That you or anyone else would doubt the word of people who put their lives on the line on a daily basis to expose atrocities against other human beings, is disgusting and reprehensible.

Want another website? I don't have the address, but look up Physicians for Human Rights. You'll find statistics that have been put together in a scientific manner, as well as first-hand accounts of the horrors perpetrated by the Taliban.

Oh, and one other thing: Anyone who makes excuses for monsters, or pretends the monsters aren't really as bad as they seem, is a monster himself.

Ban me.

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 11:19 am

Posted by Crassus -

Is anyone scared? I'm sitting in an office building in midtown Manhattan. I can feel the hairs raising on the back of my neck. I knew the U.S. would retaliate at some point, but I guess I was still taken by surprise when it happened.

I work at Heathrow Airport. My office is directly beneath the landing path to Terminal 3. After hearing of another aircrash this morning (Milan Airport) and of a Saudi(?) plane making an emergency landing in Rome due to rumours/reports/scares that a bomb was on board, I watched every plane coming into land...I was worried