If you were God, What would the greatest sin be?

Shadow Sandrock · Post by **Shadow Sandrock** » Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:07 pm

Gee, SS, sorry about that...

Well IMO the worst sin would probably be murder out of your own free will... I'm not talking about self defense... I mean a drive by shooting of a 4 year old girl for fun. It has happened before I saw it in the news. I mean who has no life as to murder an innocent child for FUN???

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:22 pm

@ SS

I did not believe I was taking things out of perspective. I apologise if you thought I was. I did read your whole post I will not quote again because as I said this is a very emotive subject.

I did not blame your GF - It was a general comment that too often the abusers feel at fault. And to grade abuse is wrong. Maybe after I quoted you I should have noted (and paragraphed accordingly) that my reply was a general one...

I still believe there is no excuse for abuse. You stated things that are open to debate/comment, but I do not believe this is the place to do it. I am happy to take this to PM.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:36 pm

Originally posted by Yshania:
@ SS

I did not believe I was taking things out of perspective. I apologise if you thought I was. I did read your whole post I will not quote again because as I said this is a very emotive subject.

You took it out of context by ignoring the reasons why it wasn't his fault.

Originally posted by Yshania:
I still believe there is no excuse for abuse. You stated things that are open to debate/comment, but I do not believe this is the place to do it. I am happy to take this to PM.

I agree that there is no excuse for abuse, when the abuser has control over the situation. I don't see what is debatable about the things I stated. If you wish to PM me and explain what you mean, please do so. Just don't be surprised if I "react poorly" to what you have to say.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:58 pm

Posted by SS -

You took it out of context by ignoring the reasons why it wasn't his fault.

Please read all of my post too - my second paragraph explained that maybe my 'general' comment should have been more clearly defined....

Posted by SS -

I agree that there is no excuse for abuse, when the abuser has control over the situation. I don't see what is debatable about the things I stated. If you wish to PM me and explain what you mean, please do so. Just don't be surprised if I "react poorly" to what you have to say.

Like I said - grading abuse is complex. Maybe using your GF as an example of abuse was misplaced then - maybe using him as an example of what personality changes illnesses can cause might be more appropriate. But this in itself could open up a whole new debate - how a wife batterer/child molester perpetuates abuse experiences could also be categorised as an illness.

Abusers rarely have control over their reason for abusing. Most, if not all, types of abuse are perpetuated. Hence I did not blame your GF (in my should have been more general post) but I merely took the fault away from the abused....

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Sep 09, 2001 3:46 pm

Originally posted by Yshania:
Like I said - grading abuse is complex. Maybe using your GF as an example of abuse was misplaced then - maybe using him as an example of what personality changes illnesses can cause might be more appropriate. But this in itself could open up a whole new debate - how a wife batterer/child molester perpetuates abuse experiences could also be categorised as an illness.

Abusers rarely have control over their reason for abusing. Most, if not all, types of abuse are perpetuated. Hence I did not blame your GF (in my should have been more general post) but I merely took the fault away from the abused....

I wasn't using him as a direct example of abuse. I had been asked why I am so much more against men abusing women than any other form of abuse. I don't know why; but I commented that it might have something to do with experiencing/hearing of abuse from my grandpa. I was then asked about that abuse, so I explained, including an explanation as to why it wasn't his fault. It was not something he had control over until he found out what caused it and how he could control it.

I understand that you meant your comment to be more general. But you should have used something other than what I said about my grandpa as your reference. The fact is that in his last few years of life, after having found out he had diabetes and doing something about it, he did his best to make up for how he abused me and my mum.(He was already divorced from my grandma and married to someone else, but that's a whole other story/debate.) One of the things he did was he started teaching me how to carve...he never got to finish teaching me because the diabetes killed him.

I also never said anything meant to imply that it was the fault of the abused. I would be blaming myself for how he treated me, if I did. Yeah, I misbehaved that time I mentioned in which he abused me, but that doesn't make his reaction right. It doesn't mean it was his fault, either. Not everything is someone's fault.

Someone who was abused as a child, when they become a parent/husband, they have the choice of whether or not to be abusive like their father was. I know several fathers who have made the correct choice. I know of lots who have made the incorrect choice. Either way, it is a choice. My Grandpa didn't have that choice. The diabetes caused some kind of chemical embalance that would make him emotionally unstable. It didn't always occur, which made things worse because no one ever knew what would set him off...as soon as he did have the choice; however, he made the correct choice and that is what matters.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Sep 09, 2001 3:55 pm

Posted by SS -

I understand that you meant your comment to be more general. But you should have used something other than what I said about my grandpa as your reference.

For that I have apologised - and do again. As I have said it is an emotive subject. Please check your PM.

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Mon Sep 10, 2001 7:27 am

Originally posted by Yshania:
Unfortunately some do. Hence my above observation than the abused inevitably return to the abuser...it is not always fear of the abuser that causes the return, it is often the promises that 'it was a mistake - it will not happen again'...or in the case of a child - protecting the carer...

Sad subject, better to steer clear...

Yshania, I agree with your above statement when referring to the abused.
However,the question was.. "How do you love someone and beat the shlit out of them..."
I said "You don't" ..love someone and beat the schlit out of them. I was referring to the abuser. That sad cycle of abuse, apology and promises, is a classic scenario of long term abuse.

Even so, with all of the "problems"(<synical inflection)that people have with controlling their behavior, my mentality is still that child abuse is unexcusable. IMO, making excuses for these people is building a bridge to acceptance. ANY risk of a re-offense is a lose-lose situation. You don't risk the children so a convicted child abuser can have another chance in society.

Perhaps C.Elgans can give some enlightened insight into these people and the Psych. worlds approach to them. Being a father of two young children, I find I have no patience for them.

end of rant.

Oh...good morning all.

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Happy Evil ]

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Happy Evil ]

Shadow Sandrock · Post by **Shadow Sandrock** » Mon Sep 10, 2001 8:35 am

Hmm... the topic of abuse is serious...

Yes, abuse is HORRIBLE. I have never been abused (at least I don't think) but I have heard stories...just have faith I guess.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Mon Sep 10, 2001 1:21 pm

The sad fact is that abuse perpetuates because conditioning affects our values.

Moving away from the recent direct discussion, and giving a hypothetical example (and trying to be careful!):

A child grows up in a completely loving household, but their parents (who love them dearly and not intend to hurt them directly) are racist. That child will consider this to be acceptable - after all their early role models approve. This child - without early education elsewhere - will perpetuate this type of abuse.

Though humans are born without empathy or sympathy, they want to learn how to belong. We are a gregarious creature. Humans are not born to be abusive - IMO it is an attitude sadly learned and approved. We are conditioned - perhaps a nurture/nature debate.

When people talk about rehabilitation - is it possible to take a 50 year old racist and re-educate him?

IMO there are too many types of abuse, but they all boil down to one thing - stealing freedom. Whether it is freedom to live without violence, freedom to live without sexual/verbal abuse or simply freedom to make one's own unbiased decisions about something...

@Happy Evil - I have two young children too. Hopefully my kids are greeting the world with an open mind...too soon they will spend more time away from me and in the company of others. I can only hope I provide them with a sound enough foundation that will help them make the right decisions...

Life is such a complicated journey but their first 10 years or so are vital...if the basis is there - hopefully the rest will fall into place...

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Sep 10, 2001 2:06 pm

This debate became somewhat heated yesterday, can the same not be perpetuated again today.

If you have a personal problem with something that anyone has said either PM the moderators, report a forum violation, or take your conversation with that person to PM.

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Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Mon Sep 10, 2001 3:14 pm

Originally posted by Yshania:

...IMO there are too many types of abuse, but they all boil down to one thing - stealing freedom. Whether it is freedom to live without violence, freedom to live without sexual/verbal abuse or simply freedom to make one's own unbiased decisions about something...

@Happy Evil - I have two young children too. Hopefully my kids are greeting the world with an open mind...too soon they will spend more time away from me and in the company of others. I can only hope I provide them with a sound enough foundation that will help them make the right decisions...

Life is such a complicated journey but their first 10 years or so are vital...if the basis is there - hopefully the rest will fall into place...

I agree with you whole heartedly....My only point was that I have no sympathy for child abusers of a destructive nature ie. physical, sexual, verbal.
Not necessarily idealogical, as that can be a matter of opinion.

These types of people will offend again.
All I am saying is that I do not care to rehabilitate them if it means risking exposure/offence of ANY child in order to reinstate them into society.
The risk is not worth it.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Sep 10, 2001 5:38 pm

If I were an omnipotent being, I'd extinct all abuse, from genocides killing 20 million people because of their race, to single events like one perpertrator abusing one man, women or child.

I however agree with Happy Evil that abuse of children are especially serious since they are more defenceless and more dependant than most adult people.

In general, I agree with what Ysh and HE has already posted.

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
Perhaps C.Elgans can give some enlightened insight into these people and the Psych. worlds approach to them. Being a father of two young children, I find I have no patience for them.

Unfortunately not

I'm specialised in neuropsychology, and I don't work as a psychologist. However, a friend of mine is doing her Ph D at child abusers, and from her, I hear there are some current hypothesis about child abusers that divide them into several different groups.
In short, some abusers grow up (like in Yshania's example) believing this is the "normal" way to behave. Some abusers know they are doing something wrong, but they don't care, they only care about their own needs and want to make sure their needs are fulfilled by controlling other peole. And some abusers know they are doing something awful, but they have difficulties controlling their impulses, and deeply regret their acts afterwords.

But why? Nobody knows. And worst of all - there are currently no efficient treatment to make them stop. Some years ago in US, a massive treatment program was tested on prisoners who were convicted for child abuse, and this program was immensly successful. But it was only a research project, and since it was considered too expensive, it isn't used anymore.