Boycott Israel - No Spam

Word · Post by **Word** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:15 pm

POE_DUNK

I don't understand why people insist in often protraying ISrael as the aggressor in this situation. Judaism has been around much longer than Christianity and Islam. They were there first.

The modern state of Israel was a compensation for the two thousand years that Christians and Muslims have had anti-semitic feelings. The Holocaust was but a pinnacle of such hate.

Ever since modern Israels creation the Islamic nations have planned to take the territory back. Israel was made out to be the aggressor in 1948(?) when it attack Syria but such wars were a necessary defense of Israel and its people. It is not Israel's fault that it is despised internationally for supposedly infringing on the rights of the Palestinians they're present situation cannot be understood fully unless all of their history is understood.

@HLD the difference is Americans threw tea into the sea while Palestinians blow up citizens. This is not comparable!!! The world tries to restrict Israel from going to war effectively crippling Israel at the negotiation table as their threats have no back bone. The WORLD is responsible for the lack of solution in Israel. There would some form of closure if Arafat believed that Israel would and could go to war as he has NO army.

(I'm sorry if I've offended anyone and for my over generalizations but things come out stronger when I do stuff like this)

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:18 pm

The reason i would not partake in any bojcott(would it be possible) against PLO or other palestinian organizations are this: The arab population in Isreal isnt allowed to vote, and is dicriminated in other ways aswell. This makes imo any kind of liberation moment moraly justifiable. I do ofcourse disslike the targeting of civilians, but as long as Im not taking active part in their liberation struggle I dont think im in a position to condemn their means.

If you find this offensive blame it on me (as a swede) for still being angry about the Folke Bernadotte assasination.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:26 pm

Re: POE_DUNK

@Word: wich religon was created first is imo irrelevant, so is past crimes against any population, even arab ones. What is relevant is that currently it lives many arabs in Israel and many rufugees in the neighbour nations. This population cant simply be ignored.

Word · Post by **Word** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:35 pm

@Dottie past history is always important thats why i believe much of Europe is wrong in their judgement of Israel. Everything in Europe is history and how to overcome history so I wonder how you can ignore it?

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:36 pm

On Arafat: I don't think he's a terrorist but I think he's a crappy leader. He showed have told his youths not to go off and kill innocent people and themselves but he didn't. The problem is that there is no person really to lead the Palestinians. And ofcourse Sharon who is a war hungry murderer and should get thrown out. Both of them have to go.

I am sure that the Israelis lived in the area 3,000 years ago, but I don't see that as any reason for the land to belong to you. People keep moving around everywhere.

If you take things from that perspective shouldn't the Native Americans protest and kick all the Americans
(as in Americans of here and now) back into Europe or wherever they came from and shove the rest into camps, like we have done to the Native Americans.

@CE or any other European: I was wondering how come the European nations support Palestine over Israel. I thought maybe because they feel its their fault (more specifically the Brits) of creating the problem and not solving it when they had the power.

Anyway don't take me as anti-Israeli or anything. I'm sure there alot of good more open people there like Morlock.

FYI my 2 best friends in America are Jewish. And I'm Muslim. So there for all those fanatics who think Jews and Muslims can't be friends.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:41 pm

Re: POE_DUNK

Originally posted by Word
@HLD the difference is Americans threw tea into the sea while Palestinians blow up citizens. This is not comparable!!!

The Boston Tea Party is the most well known example of American terrorist activity, and it is quite glorified throughout our history. Americans also stole British property, harassed and lynched loyalist citizens causing others to flee to Canada or back overseas, and succeeded in waging an armed insurrection. The founding fathers engaged in all sorts of seditious and treasonous activities which would have gotten them all executed if they had lost their war. Some of that activity was directed against military British targets and some of it was directed against non-military targets (ie-civilians and other Americans). Fortunately for them, George Washington and his generals won.

My point is not to directly compare events of the late 18th century with the current situation in Israel, but to bring to everyone's attention what our friend Gruntboy started to say, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

There is a fine line between the two, and we can use the Mujihadeen as the best modern example. To the Soviets, they were terrorists. Nevermind that it was the Soviet Union that invaded Afghanistan to begin with, but the Mujihadeen did everything the Palestineans are doing today. However, to the Afghans, the Mujihadeen were freedom fighters, and that's how we painted and glorified them over here during the Cold War and the days of the Evil Empire.

To the Arabs, the Israelis are an occupying force, just as the Americans were in Vietnam, the Japanese in China and the Germans in Russia. Without the the sympathy/guilt of the Allies after World War II and the backing of the United States, Israel never would have been conceived, much less victorious in the myriad wars over the last half century.

Who started what is irrelevant. Who hated who first and who wronged who first is equally inconsequential. In fact, if you look at the middle east over the last 2,000 years or so, there is not a lot of historical animosity between the Jews and Arabs; mostly it was the Jews and/or Arabs against the Christians. It was only with the creation of Israel, and the essential theft of Palestine from the Arabs to create the Israeli state without compensation and without the creation of a Palestinean state (which they were promised) that the Jews and Arabs have truly started to hate one another. And as I've said before, until one or both sides decide to end the cycle of violence, there will never be a lasting peace in the region.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:46 pm

Originally posted by Dottie
The reason i would not partake in any bojcott(would it be possible) against PLO or other palestinian organizations are this: The arab population in Isreal isnt allowed to vote, and is dicriminated in other ways aswell.

About voting- Any Arab living in Israel- not PLO controled territory is allowed to vote. Those in he PLO controled territorys do not vote because they are part of another entity/government. Thay vote in their own elections for the leadership of the authority.
In a lot of the cases they are only discriminated against because of security measures- something which has proved itself time and again as usefull against terror attacks.
For the most obvious example- Ban Gurion airport- which is known for its security and the fact that a plane leaving from it was only hijacked once, and that after the hijackers got on in Athens. And El-Al- the national carrier is known all over the world as the world safest airline. Only once has there been a hijacking attempt- and then a disguised air marshal thwarted it.
We live in a reality that any Arab or person who travels to Arab countries is suspect. Thats how an Irish girl was caught with ahuge amount of explosives in her bag, because of her Arab boyfriend, who had given her the bag, knowing she was traveling on El-Al. Also American Bussiness men have been detained because of the fact that their passport had a Suadi Arabian stap one too many times.

I believe that most other discriminations are by the public, not official, and thats only out of fear.
Just last week I got of of a bus because I saw an Arab looking man with something square under his shirt. The whole day I wated for the news that there was a suicide bombing- it never happened, but better alive and wrong than dead and right.
When a super market is blown up by an imployee- you can't help but feel nervous.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:46 pm

Originally posted by Word
@Dottie past history is always important thats why i believe much of Europe is wrong in their judgement of Israel. Everything in Europe is history and how to overcome history so I wonder how you can ignore it?

History should imo be used to learn from, not to find grudges in. If you are of a different opinon please explain what good it would do to be bitter about the past...

Originally posted by Word
hey they have many other nations to flee to if they don't feel represented or oppressed. I'm saying that the Palestinians obviously want something in Israel otherwise they wouldn't stay their. i believe its what the Israelis have created in Israel and such a thing is what I like to call thievery.

Is this supposed to be some kind of joke? The palestinias who live there lives there, I personally dont care much for "my nation" but i must admitt it wouldnt be fun to have to move somewhere else just because a someone have comitted atrocities against another and is now feeling guilt.

Word · Post by **Word** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:49 pm

@HLD OK i get the terrorist thing but I still think the palestinians walk on the terrorist side. Its all a question of how far back you draw the line. The palestinians by history are the occupying force. Just as the modern WASP American is in North America. Jews have been beaten down continuously in history by Christians and Muslims alike. Heck after the 1st crusade the crusaders masscred the Jews and Muslims in the streets of Jerusalem until by 1st hand accounts the streets truly ran red with blood up to the ankles of the crusaders. even though the muslims were the supposed #1 targets.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:50 pm

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield
On Arafat: I don't think he's a terrorist but I think he's a crappy leader. He showed have told his youths not to go off and kill innocent people and themselves but he didn't.

And this is my main point. I can see being a martyr and blowing up a tank, or a truck full of troops. But never will I see the point in targeting plain everyday people at shoping malls or market places. Any sympathe I would have for them is overshadowed by their actions.

Did India have to fight to get the British gone?

Word · Post by **Word** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:54 pm

@Dottie I agree with your opinion with an exception, not everyone can put history aside when dealing with someone so one must be equipped to handle such a situation.
sorry 'bout the second post it makes no sense I'll delete it for ya

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:55 pm

@Thorin: I don't believe this to be about religion.
I don't feel any animosity towards Islam. I am anti Arab Terrorists. Not Muslim Civilians.
The problem is that more simple minded people (Mostly kids) see it - Islam> Arabs> Palestinians> Terrorist- and include all these groups inder the same flag.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed May 01, 2002 3:59 pm

@Word re Oldest religion: The age of a religion does not justify war crimes or violations of human rights, nor do the lenght of time a people has been living in an area. But as an aside, I'd like to point out that the Israeli and Palestinian people are both Semite people who have lived in the area for about 3000 years, and genetic studies reveal their close kinship to each other.

@Morlock: From what you have posted so far, I would agree that you are moderate in political views, and I do agree with you that unconditional withdrawal is not acceptable, personally I believe a strict protocol should be set, and both sides must be open to international control and investigations. The suicide bombings must of course cease, but the Israeli goverment has not so far been using acceptable methods to halt them.

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield
@CE or any other European: I was wondering how come the European nations support Palestine over Israel. I thought maybe because they feel its their fault (more specifically the Brits) of creating the problem and not solving it when they had the power.

Well the Brits have reasons to feel guilty

but little Sweden wasn't even in WWII, and never had any power to do something in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

To me, it's not a question about Jews and Muslims, Israeli and Palestines, to me it's a question of humanitarian values. Many people here in Sweden seem to feel the same, it's an unjustice towards a people, and it doesn't matter what people.

I'm leaving now, I'm happy so see this discussion is kept civil despite our different views

Word · Post by **Word** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:04 pm

@CE is this not what their essentially arguing over who owns the land and the nation and in that case wouldn't the age of a people be very important. Also how can you solve this with good humantarian values if that is not what the populations argue over.

Maybe I'm wrong but hey everybody is sometime or all the time depending

@Morlock what do you consider to be the root of the problem?

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:05 pm

Originally posted by Morlock
About voting- Any Arab living in Israel- not PLO controled territory is allowed to vote. Those in he PLO controled territorys do not vote because they are part of another entity/government. Thay vote in their own elections for the leadership of the authority.

But the PLO isnt accepted as a independet nation by Israel. and the Funding of israel settlemnets on the occupied areas should then imo be a case for the PLO and not the Israel government.

About the security issue, I can understand you view there.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:08 pm

I'm taking a short brake from the serious conversation

Originally posted by C Elegans
Well the Brits have reasons to feel guilty but little Sweden wasn't even in WWII, and never had any power to do something in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Being totaly neurtal is not something I'd take pride in!

I always thought Britain had both the best and worst track record- They've occupied and been beaten out, at one point or another, of every single country in the world!

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:11 pm

Re: I'm taking a short brake from the serious conversation

Originally posted by Morlock
Being totaly neurtal is not something I'd take pride in!

I wasnt around then, you cant hold me responsible for that.

@Word: I cant see a point in arguing about who lived there in the past, But rather I would consider who lives there now.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:25 pm

Originally posted by Word
@Morlock what do you consider to be the root of the problem?

Thats very tough to answer, since I weigh what our side thinks, against what there side thinks- and, although I believe we were right- its too close too call.
I believe that root, from a Plalestinian point of view, is that they we not given enough in the UN partition plan.
From The Israeli side- the fact that we were attacked an hour after our state was founded by Seven Arab countries.
The war caused the refugees, and eventualy the occupation.

One thing that I must contest- Israel has complied with the UN in the past- maybe not on the majority of subjests, but certainly on the most important one.
Example- The Sinai Peninsula- twice Israel has conquered the Sinai- and twice it withdrew, in accordance with a UN ruling.
In 1967 Israel gladley complied with the ceasefire brokered ny the Un- after Israel was attacked and one a spectacular victory over the armies of 3 countries, totaly estroying all of those countries airforces.
I've always seen the six day war as the most amazing victory ever, in any war, by any country.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:30 pm

The age of a religion does not justify war crimes or violations of human rights, nor do the lenght of time a people has been living in an area. But as an aside, I'd like to point out that the Israeli and Palestinian people are both Semite people who have lived in the area for about 3000 years, and genetic studies reveal their close kinship to each other.

One other point on this religious argument. @Word, if you're going to go to a religious book for validation of the rights of one religious group to own a massive piece of real estate, you might consider a fair section of that same religious book shows its people engaged in slaughtering the *former,* non-Jewish inhabitants of that land.

This is most certainly not an argument against the state of Israel. It is simply to point that the religious validation argument doesn't work.

The two sides are going to have to stop taking stock of the injustices committed by each other, and start making offers in good faith, if they intend to do more than kill one another in a low grade war over the next couple of decades. This means, for a start, a reversal to Sharon's admitted policy of creating "facts on the ground" by starting new Israeli settlements on Arab lands as fast as he can put 'em up, and Arafat putting behind bars *for longterm lockup* members of his community that kill Israelis. Twenty-four hour shams just don't count.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:32 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
Well the Brits have reasons to feel guilty

What do you mean, it's not like the UK sells them Tanks or anything....oh wait

It is interesting, the House of Commons was lamenting how bad the Israel situation was, and they seem to have forgotten how they sell them armaments and tanks