Well, its the same with any form of abuse - like school pupils claiming a teacher abused them... If there is a history of 'crying wolf', then that should be relevant.
The sexual history could be used like a 'character witness'. To assess how truthful a person is.
Sexual History: Should it be admissible in a court of law?
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Fiona
[QUOTE=GregtheSleeper]Well, its the same with any form of abuse - like school pupils claiming a teacher abused them... If there is a history of 'crying wolf', then that should be relevant.
The sexual history could be used like a 'character witness'. To assess how truthful a person is.[/QUOTE]
In how far does sexual history determine the truthfulness of a person?
Look at a history of lying, fraudulent claims and frivolous lawsuits, maybe, and only if direct parallels.
The sexual history could be used like a 'character witness'. To assess how truthful a person is.[/QUOTE]
In how far does sexual history determine the truthfulness of a person?
Look at a history of lying, fraudulent claims and frivolous lawsuits, maybe, and only if direct parallels.
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
[QUOTE=Fiona]Greg, have you read any of this discussion. Do you really not see what is wrong with that? I think I give up 
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but under certain circumstances it could be useful - the 'crying wolf' example is the best one I can think of.
@Lestat - just realised how poorly I worded that sentence... Even I can't remember what I meant
[/QUOTE]Sorry, but under certain circumstances it could be useful - the 'crying wolf' example is the best one I can think of.
@Lestat - just realised how poorly I worded that sentence... Even I can't remember what I meant
[QUOTE=GregtheSleeper]Sorry, but under certain circumstances it could be useful - the 'crying wolf' example is the best one I can think of.
@Lestat - just realised how poorly I worded that sentence... Even I can't remember what I meant [/QUOTE]Yes but crying wolf is not a sexual act (in fact there might not even have been a sexual act), so not part of sexual history.
@Lestat - just realised how poorly I worded that sentence... Even I can't remember what I meant
[/QUOTE]Yes but crying wolf is not a sexual act (in fact there might not even have been a sexual act), so not part of sexual history.I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
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TonyMontana1638
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[QUOTE=Fiona]Term of art, Tony. So far as I know burglary is defined partly by the element of breaking and entering. We also have straightforward theft, and theft by entering lockfast places. Wasn't being too serious there. Sorry if that didn't come across[/QUOTE]
I wasn't disagreeing or correcting you at all, really, just kind of throwing that out there. I wasn't being terribly serious either as I couldn't even come up with the word 'theft' which is what I was really looking for, even though 'larceny' means almost the same thing and I haven't a clue as to what magnitude of a crime either term entails... Sorry about that. Idle chit-chat was all.
I wasn't disagreeing or correcting you at all, really, just kind of throwing that out there. I wasn't being terribly serious either as I couldn't even come up with the word 'theft' which is what I was really looking for, even though 'larceny' means almost the same thing and I haven't a clue as to what magnitude of a crime either term entails... Sorry about that. Idle chit-chat was all.
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"Be bitter you're not going to stay that way."
"Be glad you're even alive."
"Be furious you're going to die."
"Things could be much worse."
"They could be one hell of a lot better."
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dragon wench
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I think there is something I ought to relate....
I had always been adamant that a woman's sexual history should *never* be brought up in a rape trial, not under any circumstances whatsoever. Then... a female acquaintance did something reprehensible. A group of us were at a pub one night and she picked a guy up... went home with him, and turned up in class the next day proclaiming how hot the guy was in the sack and that she *really* liked him. Only problem was, he didn't quite reciprocate her sentiments, and she charged him with rape as a consequence.
I found out later that the woman in question had a pattern of doing things like this.....
Having personal knowledge of this situation did give me some pause for thought.
Admittedly, the guy was a jerk, and used her... but that doesn't excuse the woman's actions.
I had always been adamant that a woman's sexual history should *never* be brought up in a rape trial, not under any circumstances whatsoever. Then... a female acquaintance did something reprehensible. A group of us were at a pub one night and she picked a guy up... went home with him, and turned up in class the next day proclaiming how hot the guy was in the sack and that she *really* liked him. Only problem was, he didn't quite reciprocate her sentiments, and she charged him with rape as a consequence.
I found out later that the woman in question had a pattern of doing things like this.....
Having personal knowledge of this situation did give me some pause for thought.
Admittedly, the guy was a jerk, and used her... but that doesn't excuse the woman's actions.
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[QUOTE=Damuna_Nova]
If someone ran in front of a car on purpose for purposes of suing and was killed as a result, I do not believe that the person who drove the car should be charged too harshly for this. The driver may have been driving too fast, and this would be their fault, but they did not purposefully kill the person.[/QUOTE]
If someone initiate sexual contact with another person for the purpose of suing them later then it is by definition not rape, so I ask you again whether you believe punishment should be lessened in rape cases where the victim have taken more risks.
Edit-
@Dragon Wench: I agree that type of incident is relevant to rape cases, but it's hardly a question of sexual history, as the sex is not the interesting factor, but rather the false accusations. I believe Lestat touched on this in a previous post.
If someone ran in front of a car on purpose for purposes of suing and was killed as a result, I do not believe that the person who drove the car should be charged too harshly for this. The driver may have been driving too fast, and this would be their fault, but they did not purposefully kill the person.[/QUOTE]
If someone initiate sexual contact with another person for the purpose of suing them later then it is by definition not rape, so I ask you again whether you believe punishment should be lessened in rape cases where the victim have taken more risks.
Edit-
@Dragon Wench: I agree that type of incident is relevant to rape cases, but it's hardly a question of sexual history, as the sex is not the interesting factor, but rather the false accusations. I believe Lestat touched on this in a previous post.
While others climb the mountains High, beneath the tree I love to lie
And watch the snails go whizzing by, It's foolish but it's fun
And watch the snails go whizzing by, It's foolish but it's fun
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Fiona
I think we have to remember here that the accused rapist is an innocent man until proven otherwise. He does have a right to defend himself. In fact, sexual contact may never have happened at all in a he said, she said, case.
Also, the penalties for rape are severe enough that he should have extra leeway in trying to prove his case beyond reasonable doubt. Jailing a man for 20 years on the say so of the alleged victim is not justice. There needs to be evidence, witnesses, motive, opportunity, etc.
Unfortunately, giving accused people the right to a vigerous defense also allows truely guilty people to use the system to their advantage and to the detriment of the victim who becomes a double victim. Justice in the Western World is skewed towards preventing innocent people from incurring a penalty even at the price of letting guilty people go free.
What hurts more:
OJ goes free for a double murder or
An innocent man goes to jail for 25 to life for a crime he did not commit because he could not get evidence admitted into court...
Also, the penalties for rape are severe enough that he should have extra leeway in trying to prove his case beyond reasonable doubt. Jailing a man for 20 years on the say so of the alleged victim is not justice. There needs to be evidence, witnesses, motive, opportunity, etc.
Unfortunately, giving accused people the right to a vigerous defense also allows truely guilty people to use the system to their advantage and to the detriment of the victim who becomes a double victim. Justice in the Western World is skewed towards preventing innocent people from incurring a penalty even at the price of letting guilty people go free.
What hurts more:
OJ goes free for a double murder or
An innocent man goes to jail for 25 to life for a crime he did not commit because he could not get evidence admitted into court...
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Fiona
Yes he has the right to defend himself. That does not mean he has he right to bring in facts which have no evidential value whatsoever.And that is what you seem to be advocating
The penalties are no higher than for murder, for example. But it is not really helpful to malign the victim's character in those cases.What is the difference?
" We have no case. Abuse the opposition" It is supposed to be a joke you know
The penalties are no higher than for murder, for example. But it is not really helpful to malign the victim's character in those cases.What is the difference?
" We have no case. Abuse the opposition" It is supposed to be a joke you know
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Bloodstalker
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I think the main problem is that, at least for me, I view rape as part of a persons sexual history. It is a horrific act, but it is sexual in nature.
Therefore, when someone asks me about admiting prior sexual history into a court case, to me, that includes rape. Someone who repeatedly brings accusations of rape, esp if those prior accusations have proven to be unfounded, should have that evidence admissable in court.
However, that is the extent of my beielf that such history should be admissable. I don't think any consentual sexual behavior, however often it may happen, and even if it happens with the accused, should be admissable since that part of what I think of as the sexual history of the accuser is irrelevent.
Therefore, when someone asks me about admiting prior sexual history into a court case, to me, that includes rape. Someone who repeatedly brings accusations of rape, esp if those prior accusations have proven to be unfounded, should have that evidence admissable in court.
However, that is the extent of my beielf that such history should be admissable. I don't think any consentual sexual behavior, however often it may happen, and even if it happens with the accused, should be admissable since that part of what I think of as the sexual history of the accuser is irrelevent.
Lord of Lurkers
Guess what? I got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!
Guess what? I got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!
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dragon wench
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@Dottie and Fiona,
in this particular situation, those people who had overheard the woman's 'day after' comments went to see the university ombudsman's office when the rape charges surfaced. The entire thing was dropped shortly thereafter.
My point is this, however. The woman had a pattern of this type of behaviour. I later heard (from very reliable sources) of two situations in which she had threatened rape charges when her pickups had refused to take things beyond a one night stand. Now... what if those people who had heard her comments in class had not went to the ombudsman's office? This guy would have been taken to court, and in the absence of those prior incidents it would have been his word against hers.
Are the prior incidents relevant? I don't know? Perhaps not. But, when somebody does commit a criminal act, whether or not it is a first time offense carries weight (depending on the seriousness of the crime). Maybe this is not the same thing at all, but to me it is not entirely clearcut.
in this particular situation, those people who had overheard the woman's 'day after' comments went to see the university ombudsman's office when the rape charges surfaced. The entire thing was dropped shortly thereafter.
My point is this, however. The woman had a pattern of this type of behaviour. I later heard (from very reliable sources) of two situations in which she had threatened rape charges when her pickups had refused to take things beyond a one night stand. Now... what if those people who had heard her comments in class had not went to the ombudsman's office? This guy would have been taken to court, and in the absence of those prior incidents it would have been his word against hers.
Are the prior incidents relevant? I don't know? Perhaps not. But, when somebody does commit a criminal act, whether or not it is a first time offense carries weight (depending on the seriousness of the crime). Maybe this is not the same thing at all, but to me it is not entirely clearcut.
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[QUOTE=Lestat]But in what sense would the sexual history of the victim be relevant to a rape case?[/QUOTE]
I meet a girl in a bar. We hit it off and go back to her place. (this has never happened by the way) we talk all night and I go home. Next day the cops pick me up and I am charged with rape. Several people from the bar and near her appartment saw us together and saw me leave late at night.
The girl has a history of sleeping with guys on a first date. She keeps a list of the names in her diary because she has an inferiority complex about her attractiveness and it makes her feel good to see all the guys she has slept with. She was POed that I did not want to have sex with her on our first meeting so she filed charges to get back at me.
How do I defend myself if the diary and her past actions are not admissible?
I meet a girl in a bar. We hit it off and go back to her place. (this has never happened by the way) we talk all night and I go home. Next day the cops pick me up and I am charged with rape. Several people from the bar and near her appartment saw us together and saw me leave late at night.
The girl has a history of sleeping with guys on a first date. She keeps a list of the names in her diary because she has an inferiority complex about her attractiveness and it makes her feel good to see all the guys she has slept with. She was POed that I did not want to have sex with her on our first meeting so she filed charges to get back at me.
How do I defend myself if the diary and her past actions are not admissible?
I'd say no, it should not be admissible, simply because someone could sleep around or lead a very active sex life yet still say no to a particular person and get raped. It shouldn't matter if they have put themselves repeatedly in risky situations, or if they regularly have one-night stands. If they said no and were subsequently raped then that is the only issue as that crime is no less punishable just because the woman put herself at risk by her lifestyle and her lifestyle does not give anyone the right to rape her. The only time I think it should be admissible is if the accused and the victim have a consenting sexual history together or there was some good reason why the victim could be making it up, such is in the above post.
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Fiona
Whether it is a first offence or not carries weight in sentencing. DW. Is it absolutely forbidden to be raised in the course of the trial for very good reasons. Though that too is under attack in this country
I do not want to have to defend myself against yet another attribution of starry eyed faith in women - we are just like men with the same faults and vices. But I still think the bit I have emphasised is the most important part of that postDowaco]I meet a girl in a bar. We hit it off and go back to her place.[b][color= wrote: (this has never happened by the way) [/color][/b]we talk all night and I go home. Next day the cops pick me up and I am charged with rape. Several people from the bar and near her appartment saw us together and saw me leave late at night.
The girl has a history of sleeping with guys on a first date. She keeps a list of the names in her diary because she has an inferiority complex about her attractiveness and it makes her feel good to see all the guys she has slept with. She was POed that I did not want to have sex with her on our first meeting so she filed charges to get back at me.
How do I defend myself if the diary and her past actions are not admissible?
[QUOTE=Dowaco]I meet a girl in a bar. We hit it off and go back to her place. (this has never happened by the way) we talk all night and I go home. Next day the cops pick me up and I am charged with rape. Several people from the bar and near her appartment saw us together and saw me leave late at night.
The girl has a history of sleeping with guys on a first date. She keeps a list of the names in her diary because she has an inferiority complex about her attractiveness and it makes her feel good to see all the guys she has slept with. She was POed that I did not want to have sex with her on our first meeting so she filed charges to get back at me.
How do I defend myself if the diary and her past actions are not admissible?[/QUOTE]Only if in the diary she states any thing relevant to your case the diary would be admissible. To put it crudely: it's not because someone is a slut (m/f) they can't be raped. A history of promiscuity and sleeping on the first night is no proof of dishonesty. Moreover in the case you describe, there would be little if any physical evidence to proof a rape case and the defendant already enjoys the presumption of innocence.
Sorry, not good enough.
If her past actions included falsely accusing people of whatever, then those specific actions could be admitted in court as showing a pattern, though still some parallel must be existant.
The girl has a history of sleeping with guys on a first date. She keeps a list of the names in her diary because she has an inferiority complex about her attractiveness and it makes her feel good to see all the guys she has slept with. She was POed that I did not want to have sex with her on our first meeting so she filed charges to get back at me.
How do I defend myself if the diary and her past actions are not admissible?[/QUOTE]Only if in the diary she states any thing relevant to your case the diary would be admissible. To put it crudely: it's not because someone is a slut (m/f) they can't be raped. A history of promiscuity and sleeping on the first night is no proof of dishonesty. Moreover in the case you describe, there would be little if any physical evidence to proof a rape case and the defendant already enjoys the presumption of innocence.
Sorry, not good enough.
If her past actions included falsely accusing people of whatever, then those specific actions could be admitted in court as showing a pattern, though still some parallel must be existant.
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
-
Chimaera182
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[QUOTE=Fiona]I do not want to have to defend myself against yet another attribution of starry eyed faith in women - we are just like men with the same faults and vices. But I still think the bit I have emphasised is the most important part of that post[/QUOTE]
I think the bit you highlighted Dowaco said merely to point out that this example of his never happened to him.
I think the bit you highlighted Dowaco said merely to point out that this example of his never happened to him.
General: "Those aren't ideas; those are special effects."
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Michael Bay: "I don't understand the difference."
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Fiona