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A more serious SYM thread (no spam)

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dragon wench
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Post by dragon wench »

Aramant wrote: People who, though they have no legitimate or official reign over what is posted, nevertheless seem to believe that what they think and believe may be more important than what I think and believe, simply because I joined later, or I'm not as prolific in my posts.
I find your sensitivity about post count puzzling. The only person really making it an issue here is you. Personally, I could not care less how many posts somebody has. I look at how articulate they are, whether or not they have a sense of humour and whether or not they have something valuable to contribute. Were you to do some searching on the phrase "post count," you would find this is a commonly held view. As far as I'm concerned, post count is utterly immaterial.
After reading this thread, I've finally become aware of the deeply rooted plague of elitism that seems to pervade this forum. It's sickening. Furthermore, I don't think I should have to earn the approval of anyone, for whatever reason, let alone a reason so petty and meaningless as the number of posts one has in an online forum.
That elitism mostly occurs when people feel the need to make asses of themselves by flaming an entire group of individuals they have not bothered trying to get to know, or made any real effort to interact with.
nor do I find it necessary for anyone here to approve of me, let alone like me.
That's good, I'm sure it will stand you in excellent stead.
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Post by Aramant »

[QUOTE=TonyMontana1638]Arament's comments I agree with for the most part, though the tone is a little flame-esque (i don't mean to judge you friend, as I'm sure you were going for that anyway)[/quote]

My understanding of the term "flame" is a directly aggressive remark at the expense of another. Going on that understanding, that's not what I was going for. Rather than agressive, my post was meant as a refusal to be defensive or apologetic. Not counting any reaction to my posts in this particular thread, nothing I've entered into the "Speak Your Mind" forum has been problematic, as far as I'm concerned.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]I find your sensitivity about post count puzzling. The only person really making it an issue here is you. Personally, I could not care less how many posts somebody has. I look at how articulate they are, whether or not they have a sense of humour and whether or not they have something valuable to contribute. Were you to do some searching on the phrase "post count," you would find this is a commonly held view. As far as I'm concerned, post count is utterly immaterial.[/quote]

I have a problem with skipping steps in a train of thought: a higher post count suggests more of a presence in the forum, thus making one less of a "newbie". I put the two concepts into the same general area of significance.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]That elitism mostly occurs when people feel the need to make asses of themselves by flaming an entire group of individuals they have not bothered trying to get to know, or made any real effort to interact with.[/quote]

There are two ways I can respond to this:

1) You mean like people suggesting that new members to the forum are problematic or inferior to old members who have left? Is that what you mean? Or maybe the elitism I mentioned allows the established clique to do so, but not a "newbie". Oh. How about that.

Or, (and I prefer this one):

2) I agree I haven't tried to get to know anyone on this forum. That's because of a number of reasons. For one, I'm shy. But that's somewhat incidental. Mainly, my reason for browsing and occasionally posting in this forum is casual interest, not any desire to build relationships with people I will likely never meet. I largely ignore and am not bothered by the clique atmosphere in the forum, because it doesn't affect me. What affects me is when someone categorizes me as problematic or as a contributing factor to the supposed downfall of something he likes (I use "he" as the generic pronoun for one person, not as a reference to a specific person).

I'd also like to refer back to what I said above in this post, with my understanding of flaming and so forth.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]That's good, I'm sure it will stand you in excellent stead.[/QUOTE]

That wasn't to suggest I think being liked is unimportant. Rather, if doing so requires me to suppliant or ingratiating, in general, or to people here specifically, it is not high on my list of priorities. I would of course like to be liked, but I'm not going to go out of my way or stifle myself to achieve such. As I suppose I've made excessively clear in this thread.
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Post by Xandax »

[QUOTE=Yshania]Ah, another decline of SYM discussion, perhaps? ;)
Short of sounding insincere, been there and done it, a few times. I guess if we could just step back and accept that group dynamics will always change when someone leaves, and someone joins. Whether for good or for bad, it is inevitable (thankfully!)
When I joined, the board was less than six months old and there were less than 2000 people, there are more than 25,000 members now!
And I don't think we can blame the spam, per se, I recall one decline of SYM discussion that blamed too many serious threads and lamented the lack of spam!
I wonder who are the old crew now? lol! :laugh: :) [/QUOTE]

I could not agree more. Decline of SYM has existed almost throughout its creation depending on whom you ask.

[QUOTE=Aramant]<snip>
I didn't realize there was any form of heirarchy of authority or status on this forum. <snip>[/quote]
There isn't. Postcount matters little when "authority" comes into play. Where it does often matter however, is amongst people.
There is no "oldies mafia" who has to approve things for others to participate.


[QUOTE=Aegis]<snip>
People speak of the 'old' SYM being a highly educational, serious type of forum. That was the middle years of SYM. The old one was truly something else, especially when finding the medium of spam and serious. We found that happy medium though, and I would honestly consider that to have been the 'golden' era of SYM.
<snip>[/QUOTE]


When I remember back into time I see the same types of threads as I see now. We had the very serious and often highly flamable (with sometimes controversive bannings) threads, we had pure blatant spam. Much like we have now. It is just differnet people on various sides of the threads now.
I think that when perciving a golden era of SYM, people tend to remember the time they had most fun, doing what they liked to do - whether it was spam or post seriously. And seeing as nostalgia is a part of life, it is "naturally" (in my opinion) to wish for the return of the state where people had fun. However, all things changes.


Myself, I've always been mostly a "lurker" type person, with the occasionally socializing chit-chat/spam and the occasional "serious poster", often in sprees where I post much for a month or two, and then not posting much for another month or two. I've never really been an integral part of any groupings at this board, and thus I've seen this change from the sideline and the latter years as moderator of this forum.

I really don't see much difference from "then" and "now". I don't see SYM changing per se. I see the people comming and goeing, and I see the people staying, actually doing the changing.
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Post by Kipi »

[QUOTE=Aegis]
Now, my opinion on whether it has changed for the better, or the worse, well let us just be clear that my position previously had me biting my tongue quite a bit. I honestly feel that SYM has changed for the worse, but not in the nostaligic where has so-and-so vanished to sort of way. No, I feel the way SYM has poorly changed is in the fact that everything is becoming horribly structured and ruled, so to speak.

The fact that 'no spam' tags are required on threads of 'serious' discussion, and that any comment that is slightly off topic is met with near hostility and terse reminders of said 'no spam' title.
[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with you there.
Actually, that comment reminds me of one situation, where I had made a thread (nope, can't remember what it was about) when I was "newbe". I forgot to put that No Spam!! -tag to the title. Because of this lack of the tag, one other member was able to have a bit chat with me in that thread, and it turned out that the member is from the same country that I'm. So, this way, I got to know other member from my country, which would not have happened if I didn't forgot the tag.

And about HC and SF, I must agree with tony, the SF has been a way to join the SYM, as it has been to tony. WHen I joined to SF, I didn't feel comfortable here in SYM, because I had an image of hierarchy of members, and that newbes aren't respected same way as the old ones. This image has partially faded away, but still some portions of it remains. This thread is perfect example of that portion.
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Post by ik911 »

I like Aramant's post and I think he might be right about the elitism, which is always a huge problem on forums.

I also think Aegis' post accurately describes what made the 'old' SYM good: freedom of spam.

Both posts describe lowering or dismissing expectations to get a more free, unsuppressed SYM.

Is that necessarily a good thing to do? Is it not wise to expect some form of quality from posts?

Perhaps. When everybody just posts the way they are and think, described in BS's post, SYM might be a lot more attractive.
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Post by Ravager »

[QUOTE=ik911]Perhaps. When everybody just posts the way they are and think, described in BS's post, SYM might be a lot more attractive.[/QUOTE]

You may say that now, but I've seen complaints (from you included) that somehow the SF has a 'lower quality' spam than other parts of SYM. What you are suggesting would provide freedom and I'd be happy with that, but I have no doubt that it will have the effect you're hoping for.

The SF thread could be seen as an introduction of sorts to SYM, one that at least a few members are not so happy with, or at least that it would be an entrance/introduction.
However, the SF breaks no rules, nor are any people encouraged to do so. I have always been of the firm opinion that if you don't like the thread or a specific section of a website you ignore it and find a place better to your liking. That could apply to spam threads and it could apply to SYM. Of course such a schizsm could cause more issues in the long run. There are always going to be people that prefer one thing where others prefer anyone, especially on a website with as high a membership as GB.

There is no "oldies mafia" who has to approve things for others to participate.

Why does it so often feel this way then? Just before the start of the SF thread and now for instance. They may not be able to enforce their forces, but they can always loudly voice their opposition, boycotting the offending threads making everyone uncomfortable and increasing tensions. This I do not like.

I don't know what to suggest to improve this, what we're talking about is a clear divide where one or the other option (what you see as good and what we have presently) is not going to satisfy anywhere near everyone. Even a compromise is complicated. And then, you're just enforcing rules on top of rules by doing so in the first place and IMO limiting spam threads by saying 'you'll talk about this and nothing else' or 'you can do this but not that' is one of the worst things you could do here.

I don't think there is anything that can be realistically done, everyone is unique and what you seem to be looking for, a return to standards you preferred are gone as are the people who founded them. You're not getting those back, without the people themselves and even then due to all the other people here there will be major differences.

I suggest people who don't like this, to say what specific details they don't like and then consider possible adaptations from there. Saying that you miss some 'era' and specific threads isn't really enough. Nor is pointing to a specific member and saying 'they made good posts. Measure yourself up to that standard'. Again, you lose individuality that way.
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Post by Xandax »

[QUOTE=Ravager]<snip>
The SF thread could be seen as an introduction of sorts to SYM, one that at least a few members are not so happy with, or at least that it would be an entrance/introduction.
However, the SF breaks no rules, nor are any people encouraged to do so.
I have always been of the firm opinion that if you don't like the thread or a specific section of a website you ignore it and find a place better to your liking. That could apply to spam threads and it could apply to SYM. Of course such a schizsm could cause more issues in the long run. There are always going to be people that prefer one thing where others prefer anyone, especially on a website with as high a membership as GB.
<snip>
[/quote]
I don't really get what you are saying, but the "Spam Factory" thread is still alive, irregardless of what others might think of it. (Save some forum violations, when they are discovered)

[QUOTE=Ravager]<snip>
There is no "oldies mafia" who has to approve things for others to participate.

Why does it so often feel this way then? Just before the start of the SF thread and now for instance. They may not be able to enforce their forces, but they can always loudly voice their opposition, boycotting the offending threads making everyone uncomfortable and increasing tensions. This I do not like.<snip>
[/quote]

I have no idea of why you'd think that. Just because "oldies" don't venture into every single thread and post with the same vigor that they do in other threads, or did in the past, does *not* mean they are enforcing anything or even "boycotting" anything.
You must remember, that this is just as much in the eye of the beholder.
Perhaps you view the "oldies" in this manner "that they are better", and then when they don't post in "your" threads or threads you like - you view it as elitisme. Elitisme goes both ways, and for something to be elite, somebody else has to view them as such.

[QUOTE=Ravager]<snip>
I don't know what to suggest to improve this, what we're talking about is a clear divide where one or the other option (what you see as good and what we have presently) is not going to satisfy anywhere near everyone. Even a compromise is complicated. And then, you're just enforcing rules on top of rules by doing so in the first place and IMO limiting spam threads by saying 'you'll talk about this and nothing else' or 'you can do this but not that' is one of the worst things you could do here.
<snip>[/quote]

SYM was never a place to spam to your hearts content, and post what ever you wanted. Buck has very clear rules regarding "spamming" and have always had, and if you disagree with said rules, there is only two options to take. Confront Buck with a request for changes, or leave the forum. But while the rules are in effect, they will be, and should be, enforced. Also forum rule #5 and #9 - although much more is accepted in SYM then in the rest of the GameBanshee forums.
The forum rules are what have made GameBanshee a rather flame/troll free corner of the Internet, where people indeed can discuss the world situation and chit-chat about what goes on in their lifes in relative safty from such elements.
And if people wish to post "spam" then there are multiple threads for doing so - but if somebody wants/requests their thread be kept spamfree, it is a minmal of respect towards other people to follow that request.
It has nothing to do with "oldies" or elitisme or not. It has to do with common courtesy. And perhaps what you percive as elitisme, is simply people who have been here longer knowing what the forum rules are, and how they are enforced.
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Post by Phreddie »

ach, ITs been said, but Ill lay out hopefully people will get it.
The world changes, for the better or the worse, but it will always change, if ou dont like it now, take a time out, itll change again, no one can ever have the perfect sym unless they are content with a constantly changing community, as i am... at times.

About newbies coming tot he SF, oonly a few months ago, i was intimidated by the number of posts of the SF and her members, but i posted oince, was welcomed, and became part of the routine, there is nothing people enjoy more than acceptance, encouraging newbies to join, to change the forum, is a good idea, by stopping the reference to ye olden SYMe the newbs would feel out of place (i speak form experience). While historians are welcome, Hill, chu, and soon maybe myself, we can talk about the old days with people, but only for a laugh, never of a "darn I wish it were like that again". For example we shouldnt talk about how we wish it were like the days of goody, but we could mention funny things in the old days, for who likes to reminisce about the last night (unless certain things happened the last night tht were... spectaculer ;) ) we could laugh at the antics of weasel, or the "If youre going to date my daughter" of Der Moench... we could start a thread like the old 'Memorable Moments In SYM' of days of yore, and show how much fun weve had together in the now. The SF quotes, linked tot he first page, are quite good,personally i think this thread should b closed, or the discussion stopped, we are all saying the same things, posting what we did in the days we are nostaligic of (well im not, im not at the point of nsotalgia, not for a good year anyway), get on with your SYMian lives, have fun, if you want it to be mroe serious, bring topics to our notic and we will discuss as always, if you want comedy, come spam, and we will spam back, as always, albeit with a different tone... as always.
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Post by Obsidian »

I don't post much anymore, not because I'm boycotting, or even disapprove of the spam threads, they are often witty and clever, but it's not my scene. In no way can I keep track of whats going on in them.

People have changed, and I've lost a lot of my online community, but that's my fault, because I haven't pursued joining the new one.

Frankly, the main trend I've seen in the SYM forums is an increased number and length of posts, with a decrease in what's actually being said.
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Post by fable »

[QUOTE=Ravager]Why does it so often feel this way then? Just before the start of the SF thread and now for instance. They may not be able to enforce their forces, but they can always loudly voice their opposition, boycotting the offending threads making everyone uncomfortable and increasing tensions. This I do not like.[/QUOTE]

Boycotting threads? What a strange idea. No wonder you feel there's a "clear divide" between veterans and newer SYM members. If you think when an longer term poster like myself doesn't post in a thread, he's "boycotting" it, he's easy to get from A to C. Problem is, I couldn't care less about boycotting anything. :) I look at a thread, and determine whether I find the subject matter interesting, and feel I can contribute to it. If I can't, I don't. If I have to choose to post according to your dictates in every thread you want, or be guilty of "boycotting," I guess you can just call me the latter--though it doesn't make any sense.

I don't know a single person who's been around for a while on SYM that looks down on new posters. It's very similar to a regular party that meets in a certain place each week; and sometimes, someone new arrives who's just moved in. You watch them, and see where they fit. Whether they're somebody I share interests with or not, doesn't mean I judge 'em either way. I think I may have responded to Bloodstalker's comments all of 3 times since he joined more than 4 years ago, but I respect his intelligence. We just move in different SYM circles. :D

A little respect for people with differing interests, please. And a little less defensiveness, too, may be in order. No one's judging anybody else, at least, as far as I can tell.
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Post by Luis Antonio »

[QUOTE=fable]Boycotting threads? What a strange idea. No wonder you feel there's a "clear divide" between veterans and newer SYM members. [/QUOTE]

I think he refers to the gap between what the newbies have to adapt from their previous knowledge to actually fit into a serious/spamish discusion like the "sym old days", which will never be back but will haunt us till the end of mankind.

I like this thread. I have the feeling this will be the first thread about SYM discussion not to end with a closed thread, if we can keep the potential flame low. And discuss, not just take a position and guard it like a treasure, or a tactical advantage point.
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Post by Ravager »

SYM was never a place to spam to your hearts content, and post what ever you wanted. Buck has very clear rules regarding "spamming" and have always had, and if you disagree with said rules, there is only two options to take. Confront Buck with a request for changes, or leave the forum. But while the rules are in effect, they will be, and should be, enforced. Also forum rule #5 and #9 - although much more is accepted in SYM then in the rest of the GameBanshee forums.

Yeah, soon after I had written my comment on spam that you refer to there, I thought that I hadn't described what I meant very well. :(
I have no problems with the current rules, the stopping of spam in threads that are clearly for a serious topic, outside SYM etc.
What I meant to say was that I think that people should be allowed to spam as they wish (kept within the rules of courtesy and politeness) within the defined spam threads, rather than a possible introduction of some standard or quality as something to be kept to all the time. Such a rule, could be a possible solution to the quality decrease in SYM that some seem to see.

A little respect for people with differing interests, please. And a little less defensiveness, too, may be in order. No one's judging anybody else, at least, as far as I can tell.

I apologise, I didn't mean to infer every 'oldie' boycotted certain threads. And I respect that people may not like the spamming (or the current topic) in general and stay away because of that. I have no problem with that.
Though sometimes it is hard not to feel that someone who spams in one thread deliberately stays away from another sue to what they see as 'lower quality' posting. This may not be true, but the perception is still there.

I think he refers to the gap between what the newbies have to adapt from their previous knowledge to actually fit into a serious/spamish discusion like the "sym old days", which will never be back but will haunt us till the end of mankind.

I remember how people originally brought the point across in the Heathen Citadel that a certain type of spamming was looked down upon. You used examples from a time before newer posters arrived in a deliberate attempt to exclude us. That was elitism to me and caused a downturn in my perception of SYM. Before that time, I had a more positive view, as a result I see this thread as partly a continuation of that debate, that a certain type of spamming had fallen out of favour and yet some people would cling to the memory desperately regardless.
Even after respecting these members' opinions and starting a separate thread allowing us to spam in the manner we wished (in accordance to forum rules) there were/are still unhappy people. I see little way of satisfying these people at present, if people choose to visit the SF and spam there, instead of following some example of old times and producing posts of that particular quality, that is their choice.

Every time it seems one of these Old vs. New debates ends for a while, another seems to crop up. This is a repeating cycle without resolution.

Again, no offence intended.
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Post by Aegis »

The real issue, as I see it, does not lie in whether or not there are threads for spamming in. I personally could care less about what goes on in either the Citadel or the Spam Factory. Frankly, I find those threads to be little more than post farming, but that is why I stay out of them.

Where I see the issue is in what is defined as spam these days. Yes, the contents of the above mentioned threads are spam, through and through. I am also not about to make a distinction of 'quality' spam and 'poor' spam, because that would make the term spam hypocritical. The whole idea of spam is that it is unwanted.

With that said, in the earlier days of SYM, and even upwards to a year or so ago, the forum's definition of spam was much more lenient. Allowing a discussion topic to arise in a thread about something else was not considered spam, rather it was natural evolution/progression of the topic. These days, however, if anything is off topic, someone immediatly steps in, delegating the new topic to a new thread, regardless on whether or not it might have relevance, or if that is where the topic is heading.

It goes back to my comment earlier regarding how everything is becoming incredably structured and regulated. There is no real freedom of posting outside of the 'spam' threads because of these new practices. The way things are handled now stifles much potential discussion and topics (which is not to say all, as I am sure someone will attempt to interprest my words as). PArt of what made SYM so fantastic in its earlier days was the acceptance of exploration and digression, and the fact we allowed natural flow and evolution of discussions.

It has nothing to do with the desire of serious discussion, or mindless spam. Nothing to do with the length of one's posts, or the nature of it. We have become incredably regulated, and I honestly feel this is because of a good deal of the older crowd of SYMer's. The community has been changed to fit a certain ideal, and in doing so, newer members of the community are entering into a somewhat stifling atmosphere.

New members are told where to spam, where to be serious. What they can and cannot do. They are told what is considered acceptable, and told not to what is not. They are even told, to an extent, what to discuss.
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Post by TonyMontana1638 »

Is this entire thread actually going anywhere? Nothing has been resolved, we're all arguing the same things over and over again and we haven't even clearly DEFINED the problem. No changes are going to come of this.

... Or is that a good thing? Maybe Ik's actually, in a sense, pulled the wool over all of our eyes here: maybe he didn't actually want to change anything (or maybe does, but that wasn't the real purpose), maybe he just wanted to start one of those 'serious' pseudo-intellectual discussions he's been missing. I look to Luis's comment that he 'likes this thread' as further proof of this: maybe we all needed this, a thread that sets many of us at odds (or at least has got us thinking) and truly forces us all to SPEAK OUR MINDS.

In that sense I can truly appreciate what Ik's done here: I personally need my random off-the-cuff spamming in the SF... But I could do with more of this too :) .
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Post by Hill-Shatar »

Quite often new conversations on serious topics pop up in the SF. In fact, one was today, regarding annonymous callers who hung up when you picked up the phone. A few days ago, maybe even less, they were talking about the current state of Liberia and the robbery of Lestat's laptop. The posts are often quite long, depending on who happens to be there. If Kipi is popping on and they have not seen them for some time, then the joking begins.

I've seen a lot of worse threads in my perusal's, so I don't exactly get the post farming remark, and I don't get why you followed up with a remark that no spam is substandard after that, but I am probably missing something along the lines, so no worries. No offence if I did say anything wrong... :o

I cam through SYM, see all these characters running around, laughing about inside jokes constantly, and then I see this nw thread pop up while I was lurking called the Spam Factory. I jump in, and that's where I learned how SYM works. When The Reaper popped into SYM and asked what the place was, there were three posts instantly telling him how things work, simply, one from Ik himself, all short and to the point, teling him that anything goes, but if the thread seems serious, then they should probably try not to spam it. :)

I find that SYM is different from many OT sections, in that people here actually have formed real relationships in real life. It is a closer community than most have, where severqal dozen people could respond to the same thread and rarely ever read each others posts. Debates actually happen here, other than a thread popping up and everyone posts there own remarks and forget about it, while never reading each others. Although this makes SYM nicer than many places, it can also lead to some problems for newer people, like myself, to fit in. For over a year the HC has attracted a large number of people to it for reading and the like. Hell, the poll has over 100 votes in it. It was an easier place for someone to simply inroduce themselves onto reaching a strange enviroment, where they are unsure how to post. Many of us were not around in the beginning, so we can't off the bat post as posts have always ghone, and sooner or later enough new people show up that posts and threads take different courses then they once did.

I agree with Aegis that the atmosphere that new posters are met with is not as jovial as it once was. Reading through threads from the 2003-2004 times, I can see many threads, but nothing truly worth remembering overly much, other than a few pubs or bars, but all of it was interesting to read. Now, they are entering somewhere where if they introduce themselves in the wrong place, the embarrasment is overwhelming.

Although posts mean little here, there is something about posting your 250th post and then seeing fable walk through with closing on 21,000, that is sort of daunting. Or seeing Aegis or Bloodstalker post, or dragon wench or Gerogi. Imagine joining a forum having that amount of posts to start with and seeing everyone around you being in the 100,000s and remarking about threads from four years ago in conversations that you can't be a part of.

IMO, although it may seem perfectly understandable to many, those of us who were new were seriously wondering how we could post in a thread regarding BS's love for CM and Sytze? Or the somewhat rampant flirting going on in some threads, like C Elegan's Couch or the House for the Depraved? It is difficult for one to post when the last one involved Happy Happy Joy Joy and being worried about being covered up because you have Gwally on the couch next to you.

To tell you the truth, I spam all threads I can, if I think that I am interested on the topic. I decied that out of politeness I leave some serious threads alone, not because of the No Spam tag. However, these spam tags have been around for years now... threads asking for serious conversations on the first couple of pages left in SYM history that was not purged.
They are even told, to an extent, what to discuss.
Well, if you want, we could change this thread over to political tensions in Libya. ;)
I remember how people originally brought the point across in the Heathen Citadel that a certain type of spamming was looked down upon. You used examples from a time before newer posters arrived in a deliberate attempt to exclude us. That was elitism to me and caused a downturn in my perception of SYM. Before that time, I had a more positive view, as a result I see this thread as partly a continuation of that debate, that a certain type of spamming had fallen out of favour and yet some people would cling to the memory desperately regardless.
Even after respecting these members' opinions and starting a separate thread allowing us to spam in the manner we wished (in accordance to forum rules) there were/are still unhappy people. I see little way of satisfying these people at present, if people choose to visit the SF and spam there, instead of following some example of old times and producing posts of that particular quality, that is their choice.
I can see where Ravager is going here. Reading through the SF, it makes a lot of sense and still has a lot of longer posts than the majority of the threads from 2001. I remember while reading through old threads in 2003 regarding spammers that at the time a postcount of 4000 meant a lot, considering that the posts had a lot more. I always snorted at this, consdering that very few members here, such as BS or VooDooDali had any form of posting that exceeded one short sentence for a lot of the time.

Every so often, new threads would pop up and all members would post longer messages, but it was far in between. Now, two people post the same style in the HC and all the old timers decided that it was not exactly prefered on SYM. Well not all, and they onlt remarked in a passing sort of way, but I don't think that it was worth mentioning, really.

There are constantly arguments regarding another's posts are shorter than another's or the like, but many a time, I read long posts, and they have no content. They are a five minute read of 5000 characters saying something that many could have said in four or five sentences. Many do go against that coment, but I found some that followed this mold.

I still think that the entire thing was blown out of proportion in the HC, IMO.

There is a lot of reminscing going on, typically, it seems, here, even though it has only been four or five years, or even a month, since a particular thread left the front page. Younger members like going back and reading some of the threads, and get a alugh out of entire pages given to polls regarding what your favorite type of nut is. Although I find it funny and I think it could have lead to some... interesting... conversations, I was a little sad when I read that they wanted all the threads to have more substance. :D

Compared to my last post, this one is totally random ramblings of a newbie. :D
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Post by Aegis »

I feel I have to make some clarifications. Yes, I admit my dislike for threads like the Citadel, and Spam Factory. I went through that phase of posting myself, and found it to be against my style and tastes. Yes, I see it as post farming (this is because of the fact it can garner several hundred posts a day, when almost every other thread will see possibly 30-40 posts tops, and if even). Having said that, I avoid the thread. I don't post in it, nor do I condemn people for posting it. It is there perogative to take part in such a thread.

As for not spamming because of the 'no spam' tag, this is where I am starting to feel the issue lies in. As I have said before, this tag is being taken so seriously, that nothing but what is on topic can be posted, and any deviation makes for immediate reprimanding. It is the definition of spam which is create the divide in SYM between old and new, plain and simple.

There are those, who seem to carry the most influence, who have effectively created a blanket idea of spam, which anything that they do not post, or that is not posted in seriousness and directly related to the thread topic. Essentially, aside from a thread here and there (mostly those started by a couple, unnamed people), there seems to exist a zero-tolerance spam policy, using this definition.

Now, the idea of elitism has come up in this discussion. It has also come up in past ones, and my view on it has not changed. SYM is an elitist online community. Well, at least much of the older crowd. There is definitly more welcoming people in the newer crowd of SYM, which is fantastic, as it is reminiscent of the original SYM crowd. Lately, though, there seems to be a lack of welcoming nature. Words are spoken in attempt to greet and welcome, but when they are accompanied by holier-than-thou posts, or insufferable know-it-all comments, or as has been mentioned, the in-jokes of the older crowd, well, not sure about the rest of you, but that sends a pretty clear impression that until they serve their time, they are not worth the time.

Basically, would I like things to return to how they were two, three years ago? Sure I would. That was not only SYM's prime, but I'd like to think it was mine as well. I mean, the past couple years have really seen me decreasing activity, and going more to the lurking side with a post here or there. But do I think it is possible? Not in the least. Not without the exact same crowd returning, with the same enthusiasm and spirit. Is that to say I don't like some of the new comers? Not in the least. I happen to appreciate chatting with people like Luis, and Hill. I unfortunely do not see much more, considering my reluctance to travel to particular threads, but I am not about to cast them out, simply because I don't talk with them. If anything, SYM is simply becoming their's, and I am one of the few passing it on.
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Post by Fiona »

I don't want to participate in this discussion because I don't understand it. But I do just want to say that people were really helpful to me when I first arrived. I mention Cuch in particular because he saw I (literally) did not know how to post and he took the trouble to teach me. I really appreciate that. But Cuch was not the only one, both older and newer members were very kind to me.
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Post by Luis Antonio »

Aegis wrote:New members are told where to spam, where to be serious. What they can and cannot do. They are told what is considered acceptable, and told not to what is not. They are even told, to an extent, what to discuss.
Well, but that has always been done, AFAIK, but as you say earlier, in a more lenient way in the past, specially because the forum was not as directed and with as many posters as we have today. I think the oldies and the moderators shall help the new ones to find their niche, their place. But I think your points relies on the excess of "government intervention", which also bothers me. As far as spam threads are concerned, I disagree with you - postfarming is different than what happens ant the Heathen Citadel and the Spam factory. Postfarming happened in the Word Association thread - and I miss the thread nowadays, cause it was another place to get to know SYM. I guess it was one of my first posts, as silly as it may look, cause I had no confidence in my English back then.
Where I see the issue is in what is defined as spam these days.
There is no such definition, there's personal preferences. But building a rule, a definition may actually create a banning or a strict, very strict way to "spam" that will not allow the fun that me or you or BS wants to return.
Fiona wrote:But cuch was not the only one, both older and newer members were very kind to me.
Fiona brought up the most important point in the discussion this far, IMO. Being kind to newbies, bringing them into discussion, showing interest, sending them PM's. It is always a good way to start finding your place on a community. And if we want posing quality (notice: not SPAM quality, post quality, fun quality, forum quality) to increase, we need new blood to make things more interesting.

I'll keep looking this thread every day, its the best discussion about sym we ever had.
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Post by TonyMontana1638 »

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]I'll keep looking this thread every day, its the best discussion about sym we ever had.[/QUOTE]

Further proof of what I mean :D (see above)! Props to Ik again!
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Post by Bloodstalker »

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]



There is no such definition, there's personal preferences. But building a rule, a definition may actually create a banning or a strict, very strict way to "spam" that will not allow the fun that me or you or BS wants to return.



[/QUOTE]

*Disclaimer* this post is not directed at any specific member regardless of my quoting Luis here.

To clarify, esp since my name seems to be popping up all over the place in this thread, I never said in my post that I wanted to return SYM to anything. I said SYM has changed, and it has. I don;t post as much as I used to for a variety of reasons. Most of them have to do with less time available or simply not having most of the people I knew from before posting so it would take me more time to get to know newer members. It has very little to do with any old guard mentallity, and any comments I may make in any threads about "the good old days" are simply the crotchety old man in me and all made with tounge firmly in cheek.

Like fable said, I've been here a long time, and rarely have interacted with him extensively. He's not the only member I have had limited interactions with in my time here either. As he said, however, this is in no way any indication that I have something aginst fable or anyone else here nor does it imply that I avoid fable personally as a point. It merely means that, as he said, his activity and mine usually took place if different threads. Neither should it be taken that my lack of posting currently is anything that indicates my disatisfaction of the way the forum is now. It's mostly a time thing combined with a not knowing people that well thing. When I first came to SYM I didn;t immediatly jump in with both guns blazing either. It took me awhile to get to know people well enough to feel comfortable with them.

Also, as it pertains to inside or running jokes between older members, what do you expect them to do? It's nothing personal against you if you weren;t around back then. When I talk to DW or Weasel or anyone else and talk about old times, that's just what it is. Same as everyone else does. That doesn't mean it's a concous effort to exclude anyone. It's simply people who've known each other for awhile playing around the same way as you might talk to your friends offline about things in the past. It's neither meant to exclude nor to include anyone else. It's just talking. If you don;t get it, or can't figure out how to break into the discussion, then just say hi and make a comment. I din;t know half what people were talking about when I first got here either. And some of my closest friends here came in later than I did and went through the same thing as you mention. people want to link my name with AC all the time, but AC came to later than I did and she didn't understand half what we were talking about either. Just talk to people without worrying about fitting in. Remember, I may have been here a lot longer than you have, but that doesn;t mean I know you any better than you do me. I have about as much of a clue as to what to say to you or what your interests are as you do me. Should older members make an attempt to accomodate newer members? Sure, but newer members should be no less accountable for how they interact with the older members. Remember, just because someone has an obscenly high post count doesn't mean that they don;t have the same problems with trying to figure out how to talk to new people that you do.

Another thing. people have mentioned me in reference as to posting and what quality spam should and shouldn;t be. I usually fall out of my seat laughing at most of these comments. I've posted more than my share of less than gripping spam. Most of my post count is simply conversational posts, most less than a sentance or two if you bother to check on it. I think people tend to latch onto certain threads and identify members with those threads. People want to point to the Tunnel thread as some sort of defining thing about how I post. That's fine I suppose, but don't confuse that with some kind of conscous effort to create "quality spam". The thread was a joke, basically me taking a few jabs at people I felt like I knew well enough to take some shots at.

My advice to anyone reading this discussion or wondering how to fix things (if indeed you think they need to be fixed) is to stop looking to older members as some sort of guidline for how to post. I seriously doubt Weasel or Waverly or Grunt or anyone else really cared all that much about how anyone else posted when they were active. If you lock in on certain members and try to tailor how the forum should feel then you're gonna get nothing but constant, cheap imitations and recycled threads. You will never be anyone else, and there is no point in trying to be. All it's gonna do is frustrate the hell out of you for trying. Maybe if people would stop looking at older members and expecting people to be like them then people would grow into there own and establish their own personalities. That's what made SYM interesting enough for me to stay when I first got here.

Like I said , in my opinion stop pointing at other members as models of how to post, stop worrying about how to fit in with any clique you may percieve, and for God's sake stop setting up older members on some kind of a pedestal against which to judge members and you just might relieve a lot of the stress you're feeling as well as feel a lot more free to simply be yourself and have the fun that you're looking for.
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