Young girls and revealing clothes

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=Magrus]I just don't like the fact a lot of young women seem to think they HAVE to dress that way to feel attractive. It's demeaning to them IMO. A pretty girl is a pretty girl, whether naked or wrapped up from head to toe. You don't need a special outfit to feel good abour yourself.[/QUOTE]

I can certainly agree with that. It is true that there are way to many young girls (and older ones) who feel they need to conform to some kind of 'ideal' to be attractive. IMO, it is pretty appalling...

One of the worst things, IMO, since it can't simply be taken off, is breast enhancment...
Not only is this stupid, it can cause some serious health problems.

[Magrus]

[QUOTE=dragon wench]I can certainly agree with that. It is true that there are way to many young girls (and older ones) who feel they need to conform to some kind of 'ideal' to be attractive. IMO, it is pretty appalling...

One of the worst things, IMO, since it can't simply be taken off, is breast enhancment...
Not only is this stupid, it can cause some serious health problems.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, I know one of my exes wants her's reduced because of back problems, but I don't see the need for breast enhancement at all. A person should be appreciated for who they are. I know I reject anyone outright who wants me to be different from what and who I truly am. I don't care who it is, my family has learned the hard way with that one.

If a woman feels she 'has' to dress, act, or look a certain way to 'fit in', she's trying to get into a group of people she shouldn't be around in the first place.

[Chimaera182]

I always hated the idea that people judge each other on their looks. Men choose who they want to be with based on their looks, and women do the same; not all of them do, of course, but a vast majority of them do. The idea that people judge each other on their looks disgusted me.

Then I started thinking about how animals do it, too. The pea****, for example, shows off his feathers to attract prospective mates. Other species also have similar mating rituals. So why is it any different for humans? So I can understand why we spend so much time trying to look good and I can understand why people judge others on their looks; it still sucks, but I can understand it. So the need for people to dress to attract is understandable, although it can sometimes be quite the pain. It's not easy to fight thousands of years of evolution, and you can yell at guys for ogling women all you want, but like I said, it's not going to change any time soon.

[Magrus]

[QUOTE=Tavi]Nice thread

Here's my contribution


I'd hit it[/QUOTE]

Too tall, thin and fake. Screams "Plastic" to me.

If one of you SYM mods would be so delightfully kind as to remove this post I qouted? It has no part here. I'd truly appreciate it.

About the pea**** thing, my dad's latest ex-wife (yes, I take after my father with ex's apparently..shh.... ) has a few among the other 70 or so animals she has. There's a point there. Most other species that we consider 'intelligent' do have a system in which the two genders interact with which to find mates. Most humans don't do this to "mate" in the traditional sense. However, there is still that instinct I do believe. Just as females have the hormonal instincts to "breed" on a cycle and such, you know?

Not to say certain behaviors can be explained as "oops, it's my instincts", people need to control them, but there is a reason for the fact that it is coming up in the first place.

[boo's daddy]

[QUOTE=dragon wench]I have a question for the guys who have posted here.

How would it make any of you feel, if you were lasciviously looked up and down by a gay male?[/QUOTE]
I have been, and was both flattered and disconcerted.

It gives you a sense of power, in that you have something that somebody else wants. I guess that's something that some women might like about that whole wolf-whistling thing.

Depends on the context though and the strongest feeling would be intrusion.

[Dottie]

I think you should remove that link, using gay as an insult is no better than using [removed] as one imo.

[dragon wench]

I wouldn't worry Dottie, no doubt he'll be dealt with in the usual way....

[Magrus]

I agree, as I said above, I'd appreciate BOTH those posts removed now if a SYM mod might assist with that.

[Chimaera182]

I thought it was mildly amusing myself. People take things too seriously.

[Fiona]

Really ? Either the guys are the same age and they won't have any idea either; or they're not and we're back to self control. We just don't seem to be able to get past the idea that clothes are sexual signals. This cannot be true for the pre-pubescent, and I cannot believe you don't know that.

However you put it, this is not about sex, it's about power and control. I cannot see it is good to make little girls self-conscious and scared. But I can see the advantage of instilling that in the very young if you want to keep them under control when they're older.

You want women to have the freedom to dress how they want, and that is not an unworthy goal. But freedom has always had its price. You may not like that price and you can complain about it until you're blue in the face, but this is the real world. Guys are not going to stop leering at you, and if you wear clothing that accentuates your body, you are inviting them to look. Maybe if this were a more enlightened age, men wouldn't be so rude and gawk at women who dress with minimum coverage. But this is the real world, and it's not going to change any time soon. So maybe that should be taken into consideration before anyone--guys or girls--get dressed. You have the freedom of religion, but then you whine when Jehovah's witnesses knock on your door. You have the freedom to own a gun, but you fear being mugged by a gun-toting lunatic. Those freedoms have their price, and so does the freedom of how to dress.

I love this approach. This is the real world,indeed. Women know the dangers and consequences better than any of you. Many don't like them and demand higher standards of behaviour. They don't often get them and they know that too. Women do take the consequences into account,more than you probably realise. As I said before, appeasement doesn't work. If it isn't going to change any time soon that is not our fault. You don't seem to realise that you are happy to deprive women of freedoms which you take for granted. I do prefer religious freedom and I do not whine when Witnesses come to my door (although I think it is a bit rude, I don't have to engage). I don't have the freedom to own a gun, as it happens. If I did I would fear being mugged as you describe, but I would not say a gun toting lunatic is just part of the real world and I should accept his behaviour. I presume that kind of behaviour is against the law where you live, as it is here. Just because a lot of people will do something doesn't make it all right, and generally society reaches some kind of consensus about what is acceptable. They do not excuse such things in terms you have adopted here.

In the real world most men take it for granted they can go into a bar for a quiet drink by themselves. Most women don't, because even if you are covered from head to toe some men assume that the fact you are there is an invitation. On your reasoning women should accept that is how life is and agree that there is no such thing as public space. There is only male space which we can enter under restricted conditions, which we do not determine.

I could give other examples. It seems to be difficult for men to understand the constraints women suffer because of the kinds of attitude which have been put forward in this thread. There is no real way to explain if people don't get it. Dragon Wench tried by using male reaction to gays. That is helpful, but it doesn't really do it. Many men are uncomfortable with what she describes, but it doesn't happen very often, and mostly they do not truly experience the sense of threat women feel. They are not at risk in the same way because they are generally not physically smaller and weaker; and because they know that most of society would recognise they were in the right if things got out of hand. It is unlikely that half of the population would blame them for the outcome. Having societal support makes you very much more confident in dealing with situations, but it is hard for men to see that, as it is the water they swim in.

[Magrus]

[QUOTE=Chimaera182]I thought it was mildly amusing myself. People take things too seriously.[/QUOTE]

I've got a sense of humor, and no, I didn't put anything restricting spam in the thread. However, it IS my thread and blatantly throwing things out that I find to be counter-productive to the whole thread and directly display the problem I tried to bring up irks me. There was no constructive worth to the posts, simply "lookit me, I need attention and I'm fuuunyy." type attitude.

[Fiona]

I wondered when we'd get to "you have no sense of humour". Something more original would be welcome

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=Fiona]Dragon Wench tried by using male reaction to gays. That is helpful, but it doesn't really do it. Many men are uncomfortable with what she describes, but it doesn't happen very often, and mostly they do not truly experience the sense of threat women feel. They are not at risk in the same way because they are generally not physically smaller and weaker; and because they know that most of society would recognise they were in the right if things got out of hand. It is unlikely that half of the population would blame them for the outcome. Having societal support makes you very much more confident in dealing with situations, but it is hard for men to see that, as it is the water they swim in.[/QUOTE]

You are right, it doesn't have the same parallels to what women experience on a daily basis. It is, unfortunately, one of the few things that seem to give a handful of men a tiny insight into what women have to deal with. That, and if they are small, being mugged or something by a much larger man.
It is just so hard to make guys understand what has become basically second nature to women.
And always, it is *our* responsibility to stay safe.
We must avoid wearing items that might be perceived as provocative. We avoid crossing dark parking lots because anything could happen. We will check behind our shoulders when wallking at night. We are concerned that dates could become date rape. We are vulnerable when undressing in front of a guy, we are vulnerable during sex. The list goes on and on.
And always, always, if we have failed to 'take precautions' we end up taking some or all of the blame because too many men out there deny any responsibility for their conduct and actions. Why?
Why should we have to take responsibility when men refuse to control themselves, when men feel it is their God-given right to stare at any woman they wish, when they feel they have the right to pick up any woman who walks into a bar alone, when men believe that women are their sexual property that can be treated any way they wish? WHY?

Do you guys seriously expect us to just lay down, and accept this as right?

I don't buy that whole "this isn't going to change any time soon, so why bother," line.
It is just an excuse for apathy, and it implicitly condones unacceptable behaviour.
Change *can* happen, but without the seed to nourish it, it won't. Ghandi's strongly held principles and ideals serve as a good example; there are many others I could also list.


I'm not a radical feminist, I don't believe that all men are potential rapists. Nor do I espouse the view that we should flip from a so-called "patriarchy," to some fantasy of a "matriarchy."
However, given some of what goes on, I can certainly understand how a woman can be driven to feeling that way.

[Chimaera182]

[QUOTE=Fiona]I could give other examples. It seems to be difficult for men to understand the constraints women suffer because of the kinds of attitude which have been put forward in this thread. There is no real way to explain if people don't get it. Dragon Wench tried by using male reaction to gays. That is helpful, but it doesn't really do it. Many men are uncomfortable with what she describes, but it doesn't happen very often, and mostly they do not truly experience the sense of threat women feel. They are not at risk in the same way because they are generally not physically smaller and weaker; and because they know that most of society would recognise they were in the right if things got out of hand. It is unlikely that half of the population would blame them for the outcome. Having societal support makes you very much more confident in dealing with situations, but it is hard for men to see that, as it is the water they swim in.[/QUOTE]
Yes, men are *generally* not physically smaller or weaker, but generally is a far cry from always. There are several cases of men being raped or molested, and of those, maybe a very small percentage of them ever get reported. Because men are molded from childhood to be strong, the idea of being raped is so detrimental that the idea of admitting it is more than just devastating. Women can and do admit to being raped, although not all of them do. But it's a whole lot more difficult for a man to admit it because that's the society we grew up in; women are weak and submissive, men are strong and controlling. I'm not saying it's right or excusing it, I'm just saying this is how most people see the world because that's how they were brought up. So men are actually at risk, too; it may not be as high a risk as women, but it's fairly disastrous for that to happen to someone who's brought up to believe that he should be big and strong (I'm not saying it's more disastrous for men to be raped as women, because I know I'll get yelled at for it, but for the male victims, it probably is given their upbringing).

Since males are supposed to be big and strong, they go after what they want. If that involves a little staring and gawking or something more overt, then they'll do it. Most men are under the impression women like a guy who's strong and assertive, and they'll stare to assert that they're interested in you. They'll approach a woman who's alone in a bar because a bar is generally considered a place for guys to pick up women. Yes, it might be nice to go to a bar and have a drink alone, but really, if you wanted to drink alone you can do that at home. If you go to a bar to drink alone, you've pretty much put yourself in the position of being propositioned by men who find you attractive. Men can be propositioned by women or other men just as easily in a bar as women can, so if they go to a bar to drink, it's not so they can do so alone.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]We must avoid wearing items that might be perceived as provocative. We avoid crossing dark parking lots because anything could happen. We will check behind our shoulders when wallking at night. We are concerned that dates could become date rape. We are vulnerable when undressing in front of a guy, we are vulnerable during sex. The list goes on and on.[/QUOTE]
This list is just as true for men as it is women. It's just as true that a man may be a victim of date rape or be vulnerable during sex, and men probably do check over their shoulders when walking at night; I know I do, but then I don't do a whole lot of walking at night. It's easy to separate people into lists, but guys can be just as vulnerable as girls. Also, guys can also be as responsible as girls for such situations; I'm pretty sure I never made a comment contrary to that before, although it might've been taken out of context. All I said was that women shouldn't dress provactively since it is likely to provoke a response from the men; if you invite a guy to look, he's going to think he has every right to, and both parties are responsible for the consequences.

And no, I don't expect you to lie down and accept what is. All I said was that this is the current situation and that it's not likely to change soon. You expect such a change to occur within maybe the next few years, but it won't happen. You're fighting thousands of years of biology and societal norms, and that won't change overnight. How many years of fighting did it take before women could vote in the U.S.? How long did it take for it to become the norm that a woman works instead of stays at home? (I will never understand that one because women have almost always been in the workplace; young women were sent to factories to help raise money for the family at home, older women did as much work around the house as men did, and during the two World Wars, women flooded the factories and other jobs to pick up the slack when the men vanished). How long did it take before women were allowed to serve in the armed services? Those changes didn't happen overnight; they were long, arduous battles. So when I said that things won't change any time soon, I was merely stating fact; I was not telling you to lie down and accept it.

[Magrus]

**** that picture is the best thing that happened to this coma-inducing thread

It's T's birthday, so, in honor of that I'll quote the rules she was nice enough to type up for this forum so you can read them in this "coma-inducing thread".

7) Again, please refrain from swearing, trying to avoid the filter i.e. “!” for “i” etc. won’t be tolerated. The only exception to this is a genuine word such as the film director Alfred Hitchc0ck, etc.
This applies to emoticons or smilies as well. No obscene gestures, words etc.

From here....
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=14427

See, that also applies to those things when you use the first letter of each word in a phrase when the phrase includes one of those words considered as swearing. Hopefully, this clears up the confusion.

I'm in a good mood today, so, I'll amuse myself now.

First of all, if it's so dreadfully boring to you, avoid it. It won't cause you cancer to not post here will it?

Second, was there a purpose to what you put in the thread, beyond wanting to simply "liven things up"?

In case you just happened to fall onto this thread at the exclusion of all the others I've posted in, I have to say I don't need help in that department. Actually, this is one of the few threads I've been in that isn't me spouting dirty jokes and drunken stories. If I wanted to liven it up, I can do that quite well myself.

Third, based on your actions, I've decided it's safe to assume you happen to one of those who helps to propetuate (sp?) the problem I was bringing up in this "coma-inducing thread". Since you've entered it, and the mods haven't deleted the posts, I get to react to that viewpoint as if you entered the thread in honest desire to discuss the issue don't I?

Where were we? Oh yes. What makes you think that you are saying anything constructive, helpful, witty, cute, or remotely intelligent by posting the picture of a random model in skimpy clothes and saying "I'd hit it" in a thread that is denouncing the spread of the belief that young women should need to wear such outfits to feel attractive and sexy? I'm intensely curious as to what your response might be.

[dragon wench]

And from the same link Magrus posted, there is this one:

6) Trolling (saying something designed to start an argument or offend people) won’t be tolerated either. Members who violate this will be banned.

*begins to count down...*

[Magrus]

*waves* I've decided your not worth paying attention to anymore.

Your posts, comments, etc will not be seen by me and I'd ask you not to post offensive things or nonsense in my threads that have a serious tone to them. Thank you kindly.

Thankee DW. Forgot that one.

[Xandax]

@Tavi:
Refrain from trolling, or you will loose your posting priviliges.

__________________
GameBanshee Moderator
GameBanshee - Make Your Gaming Scream
Forum rules

[Magrus]

Thank you Xandax.

I just noticed your post in the midst of the whole trolling business DW.

I have to point out, I'm a fairly large guy, and can tend to seem intimidating. However, looking at me, you simply wouldn't assume that when I was young, I was TINY and was constantly victimized. By my father, my mother, my neighbors, my teachers, the older girls in the neighborhood were TERRIBLY cruel (Worse than the boys, and I'm talking day after day drawing blood. I still have scars. ), the older kids in general, etc. Gender doesn't discriminate against feeling or being threatened.

However, I can see your point, because as and adult, I happen to be roughly twice the size of a good number of my female friends. It may be hard to believe, but I happen to be one of the only males a lot of my friends feel comfortable being around. Mostly because I happen to be the one they chose to open up to about being raped, and who they talked everything through with. The fact I don't stare, drool and comment constantly, and that I will not hit on them as soon as their boyfriend is out of site, or they are single, or they happen to be intoxicated. A few of them feel comfortable enough to simply change in front of me, knowing they can do so without being stared at, pounced on or groped.

That, in and of itself shocked me the first time it happened, no warning, no "do you mind turning around?" or "could you leave the room for a moment?". I suddenly realized exactly how much those girls trust me when that happened. Not only that, I realized who WASN'T granted even a semblance of that sort of treatment when later, everyone else was booted out except for me and the one girl decided to change again.

The friends I have who see nothing wrong with touching, or making lewd comments out of nowhere, or who constantly stare aren't seen as safe to be alone with. I'm always grabbed and pulled along with one of my friends if she's single at the time when we go out.

Now I have a reputation for being a dirty, nasty flirt and tease, when I find someone I happen to like or have a friend who doesn't mind playful flirting and teasing. Some of my friends have witnessed this first-hand, and others have been warned not to start something of the sort with me unless they were prepared for a similar response. Some find it amusing, others not, yet they know I keep things to a few people. Why? I don't do so unless I KNOW the person enjoys the exchange, and if for some reason they seem uncomfortable I stop.

I think, that, some people don't realize what they are doing is making others uncomfortable. Not all mind you, or most, but some. A number straight up don't care, but a lot of guys just don't get that at all. Whether it's they're not bright enough, or too socially inept to pick up little signals, I don't know. I HAVE noticed that a lot of girls will complain to me, and when I ask them if they have said something along the lines of "Stop doing that" or "I don't appreciate you doing that", they say "no...I can't do that".

Now, if you end up with a guy who doesn't care, it won't help you. If you end up with a guy who doesn't know (for whatever reason), if he isn't taught that it's wrong, he's simply ignored and making a mistake. I don't mean to say the blame is the girls, or the guys aren't without fault. They should know this, and shouldn't do such things. Yet, some DON'T know. Some emulate what they have been taught, because they just don't know that what they were taught is crude and disgusting. A number of my friends need to be more assertive and speak up for themselves rather than getting upset and doing nothing. It would solve a lot of their uncomfortable situations I think.

[Fiona]

@Chimaera 182. You don't seem to know what you are saying in your first paragraph. How do you know what percentage of men report rape ? Maybe it's all of them, for all I know. How do you know what percentage of women report rape, or whether it easier for women. Facts please, preferably with links. Despite what you say you do seem to think rape is worse for men. It is no help to affirm and deny something in the same sentence. What do you believe?

You may think a bar is generally a place for guys to pick up women. I don't. Even if you are right it is not usual for a woman to go out looking for a man by herself (for reasons which are implicit in all the rest of this thread). If I want to drink alone I can do it at home. If I want to be in a busy place and drink alone I do it in a bar. What do you do ? Do women proposition you in bars when you are alone? Really ? If they do, and for example they ask if they can join you, do they sit down anyway if you say no ? Some men do.

You persist in interpreting dress as an invitation to look (a nice neutral word for what we are talking about, btw. Not what we're talking about or what you mean, I suspect, since looking as such doesn't have "consequences"). I thought we had dealt with that. Repeating it does not constitute an answer, and you are still not the centre of the universe.

As to men being as vulnerable as women. It is difficult to believe you truly think that. I have seen this type of attempt to equalise the situation before and it has usually been disingenuous. I have already given reasons why men and women are not in a comparable position and again you have not given reasons why you disagree.

If you do think things shouldn't be the way they are, what are you doing to change them. Telling women to take the responsibility isn't enough. By definition men who behave badly don't listen to women. They listen to other men. What are you telling them ?

@Dragon Wench. You say you are not a radical feminist and don't believe all men are potential rapists. I am pretty feminist and I don't believe that either. The argument is not that all men are potential rapists. There are two strands to it. One is that we do not know which ones are; and that in itself constrains what we can do. The more controversial part is that all men benefit from the limits women have placed on them by fear. By doing nothing they eliminate quite a lot of competition in many fields. They don't have to be actively threatening or even opposed to equality. They just have to accept what follows from the status quo. I think that goes a long way to explaining the content of some parts of this thread.

PS. 1. @ Magrus. You posted while I was writing this so I am sorry if some of the points overlap

2. I won't be able to post for a couple of days as I am going away. If anyone replies to me please don't be offended if I don't respond at once.