Its hunting season....sssshhh i am hunting muslims

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:35 pm

Somebody once stated something to the effect of: "One man's freedom begins where another's ends."

I consider this quote to be highly applicable in this situation. Whose rights are we protecting? Whose rights have priority?

Let us look at the historical precidents of terrorist attacks in the last four years. Since 9/11, and the accompanying escalation of tension in the Middle East, governments and their security forces have been on edge.
Yes, in some cases this has led to xenophobia, a Muslim witchhunt. However, I really do not think the recent event was the result of racism or an effort to systematically persecute Muslims. Let's be honest, the police are on high alert, the man was acting suspiciously.
Yes, it was tragic, extremely tragic. I would never suggest otherwise, and I don't think anyone who has posted in this thread is likely to praise the murder of what we assume is an innocent man.

Nonetheless, I don't think that it is either wise or constructive in the present environment for any cultural group to claim victimisation.

This reminds me somewhat of the FLQ crisis in Canada during the early 70s. (http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-71-101/con ... r_crisis/).
People were afraid to walk near garbage cans in Montreal for fear that they might be blown up. Prime Minister Trudeau invoked the War Measures Act which suspended civil liberties. Many in the country screamed in outrage.

I am not generally the sort of person to support military or police force, and I certainly do not condone the murder of innocents. But... the role of British security in this situation is precisely to protect innocent lives, and this is exactly what they were attempting to do.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:12 pm

I have read everybodies responses and i take their views into consideration but i have one question or point to make.

If this man had been a terrorist and he was gunned down, these cops would be heros. The reason everybody is taking offense is because they made a mistake. If the man was a terrorist and he was a suspect it is pretty obvious that people would not care if it was murder.

Now whether you like it or not the fact remains is that every media outlet said he was asian and implied he was muslim. This situation calls for racial profiling which is fine. I accept that and it should be actively pursued. But that does not give the police the right to gun down people.

The guy supposedly looked asian. He was wearing a long coat. He ran from the police and then was shot 5 times while he was in the ground.

The sad arguement that they use low velocity bullets has no validity if you are shooting a man pinned to the ground at point blank range. A BB gun can cause serious damage so close. Let alone a real gun and bullet.

At the end of the day it is a personal decision for everybody. If he was a terrorist and he was gunned down like something out of "The Untouchables" nobody would give a damn. The fact that he was innocent is where people have issues.

A terrorist being gunned down in a street is acceptible, as some have already said. An innocent is wrong but hey its tolerable due to the current situations. But at the end of the day both violate human rights and national laws. Murder is murder.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:16 pm

Racial problems exist, Fas, not only because he was muslim. He could have been only Latin, he'd have tons more chance to be spanked or arrested under no charge, just for being unable to reply to the cops.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:30 pm

I agree racial problems exist Luis. In my society more so than others but it does exist in every society. The thing i have problem with is that a man was gunned down in the middle of the street WITH NO PROOF. The only thing that was used as proof was that he was wearing a long coat and had dark skin. The fact that he was in a suspicious area which was later ignored by scotland yard makes it even worse.

If anybody is willing to state that a white man running from the police would have been shot in the head 5 times after being pinned down, well then i have a bridge to sell to you.

What proof did they have? None.

What did they have? A brown guy running from the police who was seen in the same area/house that was under surveillence. If that is reason enough to shoot someone down, i might as well just hand them my head in a silver platter.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:37 pm

Wich proof do you need when you assume he's a muslim cause he looks asian, and when you dont dare coming near, shooting him instead because he is not behaving as he should, or because the hell had break lose a week earlier?

I'm with you on the no proof point CM. I'm just implying that the racial problem was seen as an excuse. If this guy was Asian, or muslim, they'd frame him anyway, after he was dead. But he was brazilian. How to frame him?

I keep wondering how many innocent muslims may have died on Iraq because of these kind of actions. Or how many people are being framed right now because how they look.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:45 pm

I agree with you man. It could have been any brown guy. It turned to be a Brazilian this time. Next time it could be an Arab or an Indonesian. What you have is racial profiling and cops being allowed to use racial profiling as a form of proof to commit murder.

Imagine this happening in our part of the world. A white european or american being gunned down by the police in Brazil or Pakistan. What do you think the reaction would be like?

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:54 pm

A new, legalized, Ku Klux Kan (sp?).

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:01 pm

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]I'm with you on the no proof point CM. I'm just implying that the racial problem was seen as an excuse. If this guy was Asian, or muslim, they'd frame him anyway, after he was dead. But he was brazilian. How to frame him?

I keep wondering how many innocent muslims may have died on Iraq because of these kind of actions. Or how many people are being framed right now because how they look.[/QUOTE]

That is an outrageous accusation, Luis! The police just would not have got away with such a diabolical act in this country. I certainly have no idea how the Brazilian police may have acted in similar situations, or what level of cover-up they might have tried afterwards - but the bottom line is, it was proclaimed he was found unconnected to the bombings by police because he WAS unconnected - NOT BECAUSE HE WAS NOT PAKISTANI OR ASIAN OR MUSLIM! Even as a Brazilian, he might have been guilty. Don't you get it? He was inoocent because he was, and if he was guilty then we wouldn't be here now except, perhaps, to wonder how the hell a Brazilian got caught up in this screwed up "mission".

[QUOTE=CM]I agree with you man. It could have been any brown guy. It turned to be a Brazilian this time. Next time it could be an Arab or an Indonesian. What you have is racial profiling and cops being allowed to use racial profiling as a form of proof to commit murder.

Imagine this happening in our part of the world. A white european or american being gunned down by the police in Brazil or Pakistan. What do you think the reaction would be like?[/QUOTE]

So the paranoia goes on on both sides, then?

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]A new, legalized, Ku Klux Kan (sp?).[/QUOTE]

How naive.

This is becoming totally unconstructive.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:03 pm

Racism exists yes, however, I'm fairly certain if a white man had been in the same situation, a similar reaction would have happened. There ARE accounts of white people resisting arrest and being shot as well you know. There's more accounts of that occuring near me than with other "races". The "minorities" know there are racist cops and do what they can to avoid any chance of irritating them. White people tend to do the opposite around here now.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:13 pm

Ysh, all my respect to you, really, its not personal against english people. But the english Justice Minister just said he fully support and congratulated the police on the job well done. That is not constructive. Brazilian people feel offended. Muslim people feel offended. When you do something like that you make people think "Hey, these guys are being authorized to kill him because he's a foreigner". It makes me think that way. Its spreading racism, and declarations like that, and the way things are being handled just arent the optimal, IMO.

Also, that's not an outrageous acusation: its an outrageous FACT. It happened. I'm ok, the English police is efficient at many things, but this time they've screwed it badly. Really. And that's because someone ordered/authorized them to do so. Who? Terror authorized them to do so? No, but your responsible for the anti terror policy. So saying terrorism killed this brazilian is stupid. Terrorism is the excuse, is the one being blamed, but the scotland yard (it is the name of the police aye?) really messed up this time, and is trying to avoid public shame.

Now, its not unconstructive. Convince me that it is not otherwise. While war on terror can not be done only with weapons and IMO far more economically, the US and England took the opposite way. If you beat, they'll beat hard too. If you help people to grow and to avoid petty conflicts such as this, you'll avoid the Ku Klux Kan.

@ Magrus: ask yourself who a policemen would beat stronger. A Latin American or an American.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:13 pm

Ysh at the end of the day you have cops commit murder with no factual proof. Is that acceptable?

The only piece of proof the Yard itself has stated during this whole fiasco is that he was asian wearing a coat and running from the police. Is that proof enough to shoot him at point blank range?

I agree with Luis on the cover up. After all one of the 3 original bombers is well and alive and appearing for is O levels. He is 16 and likes to play cricket. So much for identifying the correct terrorists

The Pakistani media broke this story 3 days before BBC picked it up. Even then it was a small news article.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:20 pm

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]@ Magrus: ask yourself who a policemen would beat stronger. A Latin American or an American.[/QUOTE]

It depends on the policeman, doesn't it? I know all about racism, and I hate it. My grandmother is racist, and her father was a racist cop. You're looking at this out of context. If a white man ran out of a house that the police thought was full of terrorists, ran AWAY from the police and was wearing something that at a distance and while moving the police thought could have been concealing a weapon or bomb, they would have acted in a similar manner. At least in my area. They are trained to put down anyone who doesn't follow their commands and is seen to be a threat.

I don't agree with them shooting this man 5 times, no. However, if each policeman fired at the same time, and there were more than 3 police there, that isn't all that much. I've seen a cop fire off two, three rounds at a fleeing suspect, more than once near my house. That's just one cop.

I think what happened is horrible yes, but I've seen horrible things to all types of people, not just dark skinned people.

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:33 pm

Ysh at the end of the day you have cops commit murder with no factual proof. Is that acceptable?

CM murder is a planned. I'm sure police did not observe this man walk all the way from a house, to a train station - where they then calculated and decided to "murder" him.

Race is a serious issue here. But by the same token, I doubt there would be half the fuss if it was a white/caucasian victim. It is a matter for concern, but the race card shouldn't be played so much.

Situation: London has suffered several attacks in the past fortnight and can still be seen as "under threat". You are trailing a man leaving a suspect house, he's wearing a large coat and heads for a train station - trying to aprehend him he bolts for a train

. That is not necessarily justification for execution, but an explanation.

As for my comment about eyewitness accounts - I was merely pointing out the fact that they are inconclusive at the moment. People say that they saw the man pushed to the ground then effectively executed. As I said previously - people they saw the man with a belt load of wires, well that is apparently not true since he wasn't linked at all to bombings. What is the truth?

As I think Xandax pointed out, firearms are a general rarity in this country. Shootings are headline news over here.

Gangstas or whoever else you might expect to have guns over here except for police would not charge through a train station shouting "stop, police" and drawing as much attention to themselves as possible. I don't see fear as an explanation for him running away, even if they were plain clothes police.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:39 pm

Dene so popping 5 bullets in someones head and torso was what? Man Slaughter? Come on. Seriously. One bullet is an accident. 5 bullets is murder.

At the end of the day show me one ounce of proof other than racial profiling that even gives a reason for the murder.

Basically you are saying if the police call you to stop and you run away from them that gives them a reason to shoot you 5 times. Does the same apply for all regions. Because i know for a fact if this happened in Pakistan the British media would be on a feeding frenzy of epic proportions.

The police shot a guy five times because of what? He ran away? Or that he was brown skinned and he ran away?

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:42 pm

[QUOTE=CM]Ysh at the end of the day you have cops commit murder with no factual proof. Is that acceptable?

The only piece of proof the Yard itself has stated during this whole fiasco is that he was asian wearing a coat and running from the police. Is that proof enough to shoot him at point blank range?[/QUOTE]

No-one knows exactly what "proof" they had until the full investigation is carried out - and it will be carried out. Would this be the case in all other countries/cultures? At the end of the day, HAD he been carrying and blown up another carriage of innocents, would we have hailed the police for staying their weapons and exercising self control - just in case??

Eye witness reports differ, some say Asian looking, others say dark-skinned. Some say he wore a fleece, others he had a padded jacket (you mention a long coat, I haven't read that one) Some said he appeared to be "wired" or wearing a bomb belt?? Who knows, yet? The only continuing description was a baseball cap

I saw a photo, from that I would have described him as white *shrugs* It is amazing the flaws that can be found in eye-witness reports in tragic/stressful/fearful/unusual circumstances. In such circumstances, all we can hope is that the police have got it right.

As for proof? We don't yet know all of the story, but I would have been one of the first to despair at another lost innocent REGARDLESS of skin colour, but the slant here seems to be let us mourn the lost Asian/Brazilian/Muslim/Dark Skinned Ethnic to the racism of the British police and to the support of the xenophobic British public. Would you have titled this thread so aggressively had the guy been white? Would Luis have complained so vehemently had the poor guy not been Brazilian?

[QUOTE=CM]I agree with Luis on the cover up. After all one of the 3 original bombers is well and alive and appearing for is O levels. He is 16 and likes to play cricket. So much for identifying the correct terrorists

The Pakistani media broke this story 3 days before BBC picked it up. Even then it was a small news article.[/QUOTE]

One of the original 3? From 7/7? Four suicide bombers died at the scene of four bombs. What original 3? The four that failed last week?

And why was this only small news in Pakistan? And how the hell does a 16 year old kid get caught up in this?

Luis, with all due respect, multi nationals died at the hands of suicide bombers. Not one of the bombers thought to ask to see a passport before illegally blowing innocents into little pieces. They hit "their own" if you like, alongside the xenophobic white Brits they claim to hate so much. It is so sad, but these terrorists themselves are attempting to drive wedges between peacefully co-existant communities and I hope to god they fail.

Threads like this make me wonder, they are achieving enough.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:59 pm

[QUOTE=Yshania]No-one knows exactly what "proof" they had until the full investigation is carried out - and it will be carried out. Would this be the case in all other countries/cultures?
(...)
Would Luis have complained so vehemently had the poor guy not been Brazilian?
(...)
Luis, with all due respect, multi nationals died at the hands of suicide bombers. Not one of the bombers thought to ask to see a passport before illegally blowing innocents into little pieces. They hit "their own" if you like, alongside the xenophobic white Brits they claim to hate so much. It is so sad, but these terrorists themselves are attempting to drive wedges between peacefully co-existant communities and I hope to god they fail.
[/QUOTE]

As for the investigation, I trust the Scotland Yard will search a lot, and will find the truth. That is out of question, your police has a long history of finding facts and evidences. Now, is war on terror enough argument to shoot a 16 year young boy without investigation?

I dont know Ysh. But I'm worried sick about this whole new witch hunt on terror since its begin. People are dying, none effective measures are being taken, transparency does not exist. But I dont know if I'd be so worried. I'm being honest to you: I'm worried with this mainly because he's brazilian, and because I see this on the newspaper/internet every day. And because I guess some corruption/corrupt will "find new chemical weapons" and give an excuse as holed as swiss cheese for this incident. Alas, I dont feel bad for saying I'm worried extra because the guy is brazilian.

Ysh, The third part really really has no meaning. Ok, they strike at anyone. Do that mean police must strike against anyone? I dont think one action justify other. Investigation must be made, plans must be thought outs, shots must be avoided. Violence generates more violence, and in this terror case, I guess its more a matter of politics and economics envolved than anything else.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:02 pm

Ysh Scotland yard already said he was innocent. What other proof do you need? They said it was a mistake and that he was not connected to the bombers. Do you need other proof than that?

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:09 pm

The police shot a guy five times because of what? He ran away? Or that he was brown skinned and he ran away?

I don't buy it, and I find it an insult to be quite honest. I have been heavily involved with the police service of this country in the past (in a good manner obviously

) and they are normal, decent people. Normal people do not harbour viscious racist tendancies - atleast not in any very extreme form so as to drive them to gun down a man. People have this perception of every cop being a bent cop out for number one :S normal folks doing their job I'm afraid, and putting themselves at risk while doing it.

Furthermore this was obviously an armed officer. One or two white supremacists might slip through the net and get a sergeant rank tab - but the odds of one making it through to armed police level is very unlikely.

I am not in complete disagreement with you on this. I think indeed there is a possibility of a race issue perhaps altering the officer's judgement, which brings me to my next point...

Why the immense degree of anger at this situation? The Met/Scotland Yard/Press are making a huge fuss over this. Full investigations are planned. Officers to lose their jobs etc etc. What happened was a mistake, a grave mistake and it is not being covered up, glossed over or ignored. Those responsible will suffer the consequences, and the public are made aware of the travesty. What more do you seek

?

Basically you are saying if the police call you to stop and you run away from them that gives them a reason to shoot you 5 times.

You repeatedly decide to ignore a few things - he left a house under observation, into a train station (note bold) during a time when London is under severe threat and recovery from terrorism. There was a considerable chance this man could have been a severe threat to the public. They made a judgement to shoot. It turned out to be the wrong decision. As I said in ik's thread about police incompetance (ironically)... when you shoot you shoot to kill. There have been details in this thread that they were using low velocity bullets or similar - well if you make the decision that this man is a terrorist, he's running and needs to be eliminated, well pull the trigger and pull it again until you can be sure he was dead, and eliminate the threat completely.

5 bullets to the head was overkill - but it is not murder. Adrenaline? Racism? Who knows... thats why there are full and private investigations into this matter and we can get the truth thank god. Inshallah.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:14 pm

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]As for the investigation, I trust the Scotland Yard will search a lot, and will find the truth. That is out of question, your police has a long history of finding facts and evidences. Now, is war on terror enough argument to shoot a 16 year young boy without investigation?[/QUOTE]

Ok, let us make one thing clear - not that it should matter considering the circumstances - but no 16 year old boy was shot.

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]I dont know Ysh. But I'm worried sick about this whole new witch hunt on terror since its begin. People are dying, none effective measures are being taken, transparency does not exist. But I dont know if I'd be so worried. I'm being honest to you: I'm worried with this mainly because he's brazilian, and because I see this on the newspaper/internet every day. And because I guess some corruption/corrupt will "find new chemical weapons" and give an excuse as holed as swiss cheese for this incident. Alas, I dont feel bad for saying I'm worried extra because the guy is brazilian.[/QUOTE]

So are you saying you feel more vulnerable to terrorists now that a Brazilian has been shot by English police? Check out this link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711619.stm It highlights the occasions English armed police have screwed up. Mostly they are white British/Irish nationals.

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Ysh, The third part really really has no meaning. Ok, they strike at anyone. Do that mean police must strike against anyone? I dont think one action justify other. Investigation must be made, plans must be thought outs, shots must be avoided. Violence generates more violence, and in this terror case, I guess its more a matter of politics and economics envolved than anything else.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Yet time is not always afforded. The last thing i want to see is another dead innocent, but I worry more that this one sad case is bringing the whole security issue under scrutiny, possibly furthering racial unrest and potentially endangering more lives.

Fas!! Listen to me!! I am not questioning that they made a mistake - this is so obvious I would be blind not to see it - what I am saying is that, as tragic as it was, I would hate to see an all out racial war because he was not caucasion and British. He was suspect, he was shot. I am sorry about this. But I am sorrier to see the up-in-arms reaction that it might be merely racially connected.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:14 pm

[QUOTE=Denethorn]
5 bullets to the head was overkill - but it is not murder. Adrenaline? Racism? Who knows... thats why there are full and private investigations into this matter and we can get the truth thank god. Inshallah.[/QUOTE]

I disagree, that's cold blood murder, and it is intentional murder. I shoot once to stop the guy, and after that, I'm denying his right to live. Its the first bullet to stop, the second to kill, the others to ultimately say "he cant breathe". Its execution.

@ Ish - aint the guy 16 year old? I've read about it somewhere in Brazil...

Also, its not a matter of racial war. But it does look like the policeman acted more violent than the usual because the dude was not irish/caucasian/blonde or whatever. I'm thinking how much have them been biased (is this the word?) to doubt extra from an american/spanish/latin/asian than to doubt a fellow english man.