The Tape?

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 1:58 pm

Sort of answering your question SS:

Do the ends justify the means?

I'm not sure whether or not you believe they do, but IMHO you can't answer this.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 4:09 pm

Here's a link to the the text of the Military Order that Dubbyah signed on November 13th: [url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011113-27.html"]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011113-27.html[/url]

It's pretty scary stuff. Note that legal counsel is not included in the "rights" permitted to suspects brought before these military commissions.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 5:20 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
Better than what? I was not specifically arguing with what you said or even necessarily attempting to show points to the contrary. I was merely stating my opinions on the matter as I have just done. I am not trying to start a debate, religious or otherwise. If you want to debate, I recommend fable for your 'opponent.' Though knowledgable in the areas of Christianity, I lack knowledge in the areas of politics and such.

Was it really your intent not to argue SS?

You even said yourself
I lack knowledge in the areas of politics and such

Are your view on God non-negotionable?

I think people should help FAS out more. The guy seems upset and this is a safe place for dialogue. If there was better talk on these Taboo topics maybe there would not be so much angst.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 5:45 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
[url="http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=35458"]http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=35458[/url]
The Pakistani point of view up above.

Do i understand the Western point of view.
Certainly, most muslims do.

3500 people died - being revised to less than 2700 presently.
It was an attack within Fortress USA, a deep shock to the US people.
They want vindication and revenge and to see the persons they believe who commited the act to punished.
Nothing wrong in that.

However when the US violates UN resolutions, the norms or war and the basic human rights of people in Afghanistan then i have and many muslims have problems.

The War in my opinion is morally, politically etc etc etc unjust and the Afghani people are the ones suffering.
Afghanis are dying while the Americans sit pretty in their planes.
The above statement is Harsh but that is how i feel.
I better stop now.

Fas do you know of a better way to stop terrorist network in Afganistan?

That UBL had got a pretty clear record of not liking the USA and condoning terror and being a leader in his 'field'. I think from US view he is a dead duck regardless.

On BBC they said the US has a resolution from UN to do what it is doing. It is all legal I believe.

The US and any western countries do not really care about the atrocities that happen in middle-east. But why should the western countries act here. IS this a UN concern not US.

The Pakistan gov is a military one I believe without a lot of credibility in western eyes. I think they are in a tough position.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 6:27 pm

Originally posted by Gaxx_Firkraag:
Sort of answering your question SS:

Do the ends justify the means?

I'm not sure whether or not you believe they do, but IMHO you can't answer this.

I was not saying the ends in any of the situations mentioned do or do not justify the means. I don't claim there was a better way, nor do I claim that the ways were wrong. It just seems to me that as the situations get worse, the means by which the situations are handled get worse as well and the only justification given is "It got the job done." Sure, it may have gotten the job done...but at what cost?

I do understand that sometimes there is no other choice than to use extreme measure. I just sometimes wonder if the cost is really worth it. This is why I avoid the news. This may seem insensitive or something, but I don't want to hear about the cost. I really don't think I could handle it.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 1:43 am

Well thanx for your replies! and also if you want to know more about "the truth", [url="http://www.rense.com"]here is a link[/url] to very good site for conspirecies(SP) and such.
Enjoy!

[ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: Morlock ]

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 1:56 am

Originally posted by fable:
I'm missing your point.

My point is: Disregard the tape. Check the record.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Dec 16, 2001 4:08 am

At99 would rather have a democractic govt in the muslim world where the people's voices matter?
Hell no.
Then you have no friends in the muslim world.

The US is happy with dictatorial and oppressive regimes in the Mid-east as they would want US support to stay in power.

Fact credibility. If there was a democracy, US forces would not even have the ability to fly over our air space let alone have forces there.

It doesn't matter what the UN resolution says, as it does not give teh US a carte-blanche to violate UN rules and norms of war.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 8:56 am

Originally posted by Sojourner:
My point is: Disregard the tape. Check the record.

But this topic isn't about the record; it was started to discuss the tape. And it's fascinating to speculate who might want to create such a document, and for what reasons.

One source that has not been considered is that the tape comes from a division or bureau of the US government. We're all too used to thinking of governments as monolithic. Particularly where large, powerful, secretive governments are concerned (the US, the Russians, the French, the British, etc), there is often a great deal of in-fighting among specific nominally cooperative groups: it's no great secret that the FBI and the CIA, for example, have hated one another's guts (and everything attached) for a number of years. There were "clean" members of the Nixon administration who knew nothing of the abrogation of the laws by a few cabinet heads and the president, himself. Various cabinet divisions often compete for jurisdiction and precedence. It can even invade the White House: Donald Reagan, Chief of Staff to Uncle Ronnie, had a pact of mutual hatred with the First Lady (who was actually quite powerful when in the White House).

It should be remembered that where secretive governments are concerned, the idea of conspiracy becomes less fantastic and more tenable. Numerous in-government conspiracies at various levels have been proven; some have gone to court. We know that the British government, at very high levels, refused to acknowledge that a certain drop-point in the Netherlands was in the hands of German agents; so that nearly a hundred British airmen were dropped to their capture and eventual death during WWII despite the knowledge of lower-ranking officials. We know that extremely high-ranking officials in the current French government had been working together to accept bribes from multi-nationals for years; all this came out in the courts over the last year. We know that the CIA was directly involved in providing training, arms, and the names and whereabouts of political opponents to the Pinoche regime in Chile (in large part, thanks to papers that were de-classified by Clinton).

Conspiracies happen. They aren't the stuff of wonder and half-baked dreams, but simply the result of groups of powerful people working to a specific goal behind the scenes, for a variety of reasons. The point isn't whether conspiracies ever occur or not, but whether in this instance a group of people could have engineered the production and delivery of the tape.

It seems possible to me that one bureau or department within the US government might have developed the tape with private assistance. What proof can I offer? Absolutely none. This is just a theory, but when the government sources refuse to name any origins for their video tape, I begin to wwonder.

[ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Vivien · Post by **Vivien** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 9:37 am

Fas,
I dont' really have anything to add to this discussion, as it depresses me... I worry that the U.S. is being unjust and hurting innocents...

You don't care if iraqis die, you don't care if palestinians or kashmiris die

Some of us do care. *hug*

Vivien

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 11:25 am

Originally posted by fable:
...<snip>...It seems possible to me that one bureau or department within the US government might have developed the tape with private assistance. What proof can I offer? Absolutely none. This is just a theory, but when the government sources refuse to name any origins for their video tape, I begin to wwonder.

I earlier said I respected your skepticism, fable, but this statement makes me wonder. If you have "absolutely no proof," well then why assume that the tape is a hoax? Why make any judgement on it whatsoever? It IS good to question and judge, but when you simply propose a "theory" with absolutely no proof or reason, it makes your entire stance seem biased.

You say that the fact that the US has not given the source of the tape as suspicious - to me, that is rather UN-suspicious in comparison to some of the tape's features. The government wants the terrorists to know as little as possible about HOW we are getting information, and WHERE that information is coming from. CNN broadcasting the ways and means of obtaining the tape may run contrary to that goal.

Again, I myself have no opinion of this tape, but I find it interesting to see how other people percieve it.

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
...<snip>...I think it was Lazarus who said this in Heinlein's book Time Enough For Love and I'm having to summarize cause I can't remember where in th book it said this. ^_^;;

There are two ways to lie.
1.)Don't tell the truth
2.)Tell the truth in a way that seems so outrageous that no one will believe it is the true...<snip>...

Wasn't me. I don't like Heinlein enough to quote him.

FudD · Post by **FudD** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 12:35 pm

is it possible our government fabricated the tape? Of course it is....could we speculate who or what part of our system was involved in this (if it even happened), sure we could sepeculate all day. There are things within our government, people, groups, organizations that we know lil to nothing about and not much is going to change that. I think the questions peeps are asking bout the tape goes way beyond the tape...if you start asking is this tape fake then you have to ask if any of what you are told is truth. Beyond that you would then have to ask yourself a whole bunch of "is this real...have we been lied to?"..and those questions could go back a long ways in our history relating to many issues. Is this tape fake? Who really cares? would it change your views on OBL? would you lose faith in our leaders? could you believe that JFK was killed by his own people? Would you believe me when i told you our government commited genocide on native americans? Would any of those questions being awnsered change your views on OBL, the USA and the world? And what would you do if you had the awnsers to those questions? Would you stop paying taxes, go out and protest, stop voting or go live in the wilderness not willing to be part of this system?

Does our fp sux0rs..yep it sure does...does it sux that many middle eastern counties breed and feed hate? Yep that sure does sux too....how are you going to change any of that? Talking about it all day...what will that solve? Don't get me wronge..i do think it is great that peeps from all over the world are disscussing these things right here in this very thread....but take a step back for a minute and think bout all of it. Can you possibly begin to understand why? Can you change any of it? If the whole book was oppened and we were to see with our own eyes all the evils done by governments and individuals in this world througout history would it change anything? And where does all that/this leave us......??

Do i/we care if children die in other counties....possibly as a result of our USA government? Yes is my awnser...but then i must ask the question do they care if our children die? Many children die at the hands of other children in this country....and many more die as a result of our governments internal policies. Let me ask you this....could palistinians really give a shat that Americans die every day in our inner city gettos? Do you think people in the middle east can relate to us in the west? Why are children in Pakistan thaught to hate Americans when they have never met us.......and know very lil' about us? Why are so many people in this world pissed off and so full of hate? Why can't peeps in this world see past the governing factions and just see the peeps of this world who are all trying to live better lives? Is it impossible to see past someones race or color? When will peeps be able to see past you or me being a musilm, christian or atheist and just look at anouther person as a human being. IMHO...we will never see peace untill peeps of the world can stop creating walls and start living together without hate and misunderstanding. We are all of the same and untill 90% of the world population realizes that we are going to continue to see lies, terrorism, hate, killing and death. When do you think it will end.....??

[ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: FudD ]

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 1:57 pm

Lazarus writes:
I earlier said I respected your skepticism, fable, but this statement makes me wonder. If you have "absolutely no proof," well then why assume that the tape is a hoax? Why make any judgement on it whatsoever? It IS good to question and judge, but when you simply propose a "theory" with absolutely no proof or reason, it makes your entire stance seem biased.

I don't assume the tape is a hoax. You asked for my opinion, and I gave you my current belief, based on several conditions that would have to be fulfilled for the tape to be what the US government claims of it. My mind's not closed, and I'm willing to change it anytime, provided some explanation is forthcoming that covers those conditions.

Nor am I judging anything. Why should I? You asked for an opinion, as ill-informed as the next. I gave it. When more facts surface, ask me once again. If you don't want my tentative theories on the matter, perhaps you shouldn't request 'em.

Let's consider what we know about the matter:

1) bin Ladan has allowed only a few interviews over the last decade, with internationally respected journalists, who were searched beforehand, and whose questions were discussed in advance.

2) bin Ladan is surrounded at all times by a coterie of fanatical bodyguards who are close friends and longtime associates.

3) bin Ladan has denied any complicity in the September attacks. (Note, I am not discussing his involvement, which remains conjectural, in any case; the main point to focus on is denial of complicity.)

4) For a video tape (plus sound) to be made, you need a pretty large, obvious piece of recording equipment.

5) Such a piece of equipment was supposedly held by somebody in bin Ladan's presence.

6) It was held at just the right moment by someone in bin Ladan's inner circle of bodyguards and lieutenants to allow him to indicate his complicity in the September attacks.

7) The video tape just happened to be left in the street of a city, several hundred miles away from bin Ladan and his closest followers.

8) The tape just happened to be picked up by somebody who managed to get it directly into American hands.

I can't see anything other than a satire being written out of the above circumstances, and a pretty far-fetched satire, too. It is too absurd for reality. It seems ridiculous (to me) that anybody who is as (rightly) paranoid as bin Ladan would pose in front of a known video camera and openly discuss points that contradict his public stance on the September attacks. More incomprehensible still are the series of steps that supposedly led to the video tape showing up in US government hands.

I would only add that every government save the US has either remained officially silent about the tape's creditability, or gone on record as "expressing doubt" (diplomatic phrase for "what a fraud") over its authenticity.

In the meantime, I'd like your opinion of Dubbyah's Military Order and its implications, when you get a chance.

[ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 4:28 pm

Originally posted by FudD:
 could you believe that JFK was killed by his own people?

Well,if you read my link you would know that the Prescot Bush was behind the whole JFK plot - which is supported in "The Rock" - the guy knows the truth about the assasination even though he was imprisoned in 1962- obvious conspiracy(just kidding

) and you would also know that George H. W. Bush(the father) knew about 9/11.

(

)

All of this is of course a joke there is no conspiracy, there was no alien landing at Roswell (oops I've said too much!) and you are not being watched. Constantly. Around the clock. 24/7. 365 days a year. None of that going on. Not at all. (I Gotta work on that ending!

)

(All of this is just to keep the topic light hearted because,well,politics are too (deleted X rated word) boring!

)

[ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: Morlock ]

at99 · Post by **at99** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 8:42 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
At99 would rather have a democractic govt in the muslim world where the people's voices matter?
Hell no.
Then you have no friends in the muslim world.

The US is happy with dictatorial and oppressive regimes in the Mid-east as they would want US support to stay in power.

Fact credibility. If there was a democracy, US forces would not even have the ability to fly over our air space let alone have forces there.

It doesn't matter what the UN resolution says, as it does not give teh US a carte-blanche to violate UN rules and norms of war.

Could I ask you what you think the US should have done on its war on terror and other foreign matters.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 8:48 pm

Originally posted by Morlock:
[QB

Well(All of this is just to keep the topic light hearted because,well,politics are too (deleted X rated word) boring! )

[ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: Morlock ][/QB]

I agree that politics is usually too dull to argue about. Sometimes there are issues which need more public attention. People I think too often turn a blind eye to the troubles that happen overseas.

ps I am amazed no one has claimed to see Elvis in Afganistan (light relief comment)

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 10:02 am

Originally posted by fable:
...<snip>...In the meantime, I'd like your opinion of Dubbyah's Military Order and its implications, when you get a chance.

Oh, I'm a civil libertarian: I don't care for Bush's action in this regard. In fact, other than the actual military campaign, I think the entire US government (from Bush on down) has handled this crisis rather poorly.

It is my opinion that the US is slowly but surely moving towards a statist attitude, and the actions taken recently have only hurried that course. Would that it were not so.

As to the tape: I did ask for your opinion, and did find your response lacking - this more recent post further elucidates your position; thanks.

Aleldar · Post by **Aleldar** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 10:36 am

Originally posted by Lazarus:
Oh, I'm a civil libertarian: I don't care for Bush's action in this regard. In fact, other than the actual military campaign, I think the entire US government (from Bush on down) has handled this crisis rather poorly.
It is my opinion that the US is slowly but surely moving towards a statist attitude, and the actions taken recently have only hurried that course. Would that it were not so.

As to the tape: I did ask for your opinion, and did find your response lacking - this more recent post further elucidates your position; thanks.

What would you of done, if you were in Bush's shoes???

Act like nothing had happened?? Just like Clinton did, when the ship was bombed in Yamin and the bombings in Kenya.

Here is a question.
Would the US be in this mess, if the right steps was taken after the bombing in NYC the first time and the bombings in Kenya?

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:52 am

Originally posted by Aleldar:

What would you of done, if you were in Bush's shoes???

I was wondering the same thing here. I see all this criticism of Bush's actions; but I seriously wonder if anyone at this board could truely honestly say beyond any shadow of a doubt that they could be doing any better in Bush's situation. Not only does Bush have to deal with the events that happened on 9-11 like the rest of us do, but he also has to deal with the fact that it happened within the country that he is currently the leader of. Then he has to decide what to do next while the entire world watches ready to critique everything he does. Would you rather him succumb to critique and not get anything done or just do what he believes is the right thing to do? Bush is doing what he believes is the right thing to do. He has no examples to rely on. He can't look back in history and see how someone else handled this situation. Thus, he is doing the only thing he can do and that is to rely on God to lead him as he leads this country, and in some ways the world, through this situation; and that is exactly what he is doing. I see all this criticizing of Bush's actions, but I see very little to no support for Bush. This is a time when, more than anything, Bush needs our support, even if you don't completely agree with his actions. I don't know enough about what he's doing to be able to disagree with his actions, but I would support him nonetheless. He is our president and he is doing the best he can do, with God's help, to deal with this situation in the best way possible.

[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: Sailor Saturn ]

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 12:29 pm

Originally posted by Aleldar:

What would you of done, if you were in Bush's shoes???

Act like nothing had happened?? Just like Clinton did, when the ship was bombed in Yamin and the bombings in Kenya.

Here is a question.
Would the US be in this mess, if the right steps was taken after the bombing in NYC the first time and the bombings in Kenya?

Whoah! I think you mis-read me, there. As I stated in my post: the military campaign is the only part of the response to 9-11 that I agree at all with (though I do have certain reservations even about that). I might add that I think military action against states who harbor terrorists is LONG overdue - about 50 years overdue, in fact.

BUT - I do strongly disagree with the "bailing out" of the airlines, and the whole "economic stimulus package" (whether of democratic or republican flavor), and with the military tribunals, and with holding suspects without charges for extended periods, and with ...

[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: Lazarus ]