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Theological Quandaries 101

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Gwalchmai
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Post by Gwalchmai »

Originally posted by Waverly:
<STRONG>Thanks Gawain. Am I to [understand] you studied the sciences?

err fable, I *do* have those powers, and I *do* spend all my time putting on ridiculous mating displays :D :D

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: Waverly ]</STRONG>
Well, I'm an archaeologist, but some people argue that archaeology is not a "true" science....

Most of my most prominent features are functionally useless except to attract members of the opposite sex, such as multi-colored tail feathers and large antlers. ;)
That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.
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Post by nael »

large antlers are a must...also a good mating song is important
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thantor3
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Post by thantor3 »

One of the things that struck me is that evolution from a genetic perspective is frequently and hotly debated but evolution in terms of the evolution of consciousness is frequently ignored. Beside Krishnamurti's Awakening of Intellegence, one of the pivotal systems I grappled with early on was the whole Robert Anton Wilson/Timothy Leary model of the evolution of consciousness. Basically, Leary assumed that the nervous system consists of eight potential circuits, or mini-brains. Four of these circuits are in the usually active left lobe and are concerned with our terrestrial survival. The other four are extra-terrestrial, reside in the "silent" or inactive right lobe, and are for use in our future evolution. The circuits are:

1. Bio-Survival
2. Emotional- Territorial
3. Laryngeal-Manual (Symbolic)
4. Domestic (SocioSexual)

5. Neurosomatic
6. Neuroelectric
7. Neurogenetic
8. Neuroatomic

Anton Wilson notes that a variety of techniques were used to open the "extraterrestrial" or higher circuits. Aleister Crowley, for example, practiced a form of sacramental sex (or sex magick) that was not only focused on producing an evolved human -- the "magickal childe" -- but also an evolved form of orgasm (the polyphase orgasm), a kind of Tantric mutation designed to give you a fifth neurological circuit where most humans only have four. Leary, being who he was, theorized that there was a drug to open each circuit. Opium for the 1st, alcohol for the 2nd, cocaine for the 3rd, etc. He further speculated that the culture's infatuation with marijuana (5th), peyote (6th), LSD (7th), and ketamine (8th) was an indication of evolutionary pressure, not genetically, but in the realm of consciousness. However, many mushrooms, tabs, and vials later, despite mind-blowingly incredible experiences, I would hardly call myself or any of my compatriots that trod this path of alchemy evolutionarily evolved. Sigh. As Ram Dass' guru said to him on one occasion, upon being asked about the potency of LSD: "Indeed, your medicine will allow you to see God. But you can only stay for two hours."

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: thantor3 ]

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: thantor3 ]
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Post by thantor3 »

Which leads to my second thought. Much later, I became attracted to a perspective in theology called the apophatic tradition. The idea that the ultimate Source (God? Goddess? All that Is?) is beyond all human attempts to define or classify He/She/It. Joseph Campbell hints at this in his interviews with Bill Moyer. A rather cold theology but if it is combined with a non-dualistic perspective that God (for brevity) is in no way involved in the illusory and unreal world we live in, it becomes the rather interesting question: "How then shall we live?" Basically, if we are living in a dream, what is the next step? Like Plato's allegory of the cave, how do you recognize that there is something more than the fire casting shadows?

If we are not living in a dream, what guiding principle can encompass evolution (the "10,000 forms of maya"), quantum physics, the bewildering force of love, and the incredible fact that people are just as barbaric as they were 5,000 years ago (re: the Holocaust)? I love these questions. But then, having very few brain cells left to rub together, it is easy to be endlessly entertained.

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: thantor3 ]
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Mr Sleep
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Post by Mr Sleep »

Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
<STRONG>In fact, the Neanderthals, which are considered by some paleo-anthropologists to be a dead-end off-shoot of the human evolutionary tree, had an average cranial capacity that was larger than today's human average (by about 500 ccs I think) and were physically more powerful to boot. Who was “more evolved?”

</STRONG>
How much proof is there of the Neanderthal man? And how much of it is an off shoot of man wanting there to be such a creation.
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
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Post by Waverly »

Are you suggesting Neanderthal man did not exist? We have bones, tools, tracks, etc. etc. and have even extracted DNA from an upright primate much like us but not the same. The 'proof' is overwhelming. The only alternative explanation would be some elaborate hoax; and I hardly think hundreds if not thousands of scientist throughout the world have fabricated tens of thousands of artifacts for a bit of a jest. Go down to the natural history museum and stand 6 inches from a Neanderthal skull.

And before you bring up Piltdown man, remember that it was one man with one artifact who perpetrated the hoax. What's more: it was fellow scientists, some of them previous believers, that debunked the hoax. Remember me saying science was self correcting? Better to be embarrassed and accurate than hide the fact you were fooled by embracing falsehoods.
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Mr Sleep
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Post by Mr Sleep »

I was reffering to piltdown man, but i had got confused between the two i had heard it was a hoax, couldn't remember the specifics.

BTW Wav when you said earlier that i had been lost, thats crap, in theological terms you have been lost.
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
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Waverly
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Post by Waverly »

I don't remember calling you lost, but I could see how you could get that impression.

As far as my going astray theologically: by whose definition? Fire and brimstone in my future? If that is what your spiteful and vengeful god thinks of those that are merely curious about the workings of the world he created...bring it on.
Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time
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Mr Sleep
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Post by Mr Sleep »

Your tempting the wrath of God, HAH! :D :D

But seriously you did say "Once someone gets a case of creationism, no amount of discussion ever seems to bring them back"
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Post by Waverly »

That's accurate, IMHO. Is there anything I could say to convince you? No. In fairness you could probably say the converse about me... except that I am right ;)
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Post by Mr Sleep »

And how many times have i heard that, :rolleyes:
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nael
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Post by nael »

it is far easier to convince a man that what he knows to be a fact is wrong than to convince a man what he has faith in is wrong
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Mr Sleep
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Post by Mr Sleep »

That is a very wise statement, what exactly is someone as wise as yourself doing on GB :) :D :rolleyes:

Faith also tends to end up somewhat more vitriolic :D
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Post by Anatres »

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG> Faith also tends to end up somewhat more vitriolic :D </STRONG>
Probably because faith requires no empherical proof. So you either 'see' it or you don't. There's nothing (like evidence) to get in the way. ;)
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Post by Gwalchmai »

Originally posted by Waverly:
<STRONG>And before you bring up Piltdown man, remember that it was one man with one artifact who perpetrated the hoax.</STRONG>
Actually, it was two artifacts. A fragment of a Roman soldier's skull and the jaw of an orangutang with the condiles broken off and the teeth filed down. Oh, and a lot of Fluorine-based paint. But, I'm quibbling, aren't I? :D

So, Waverly, apprently you have had extensive training in the sciences, too?
That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.
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Post by fable »

Thantor writes:
Which leads to my second thought. Much later, I became attracted to a perspective in theology called the apophatic tradition. The idea that the ultimate Source (God? Goddess? All that Is?) is beyond all human attempts to define or classify He/She/It. Joseph Campbell hints at this in his interviews with Bill Moyer. A rather cold theology but if it is combined with a non-dualistic perspective that God (for brevity) is in no way involved in the illusory and unreal world we live in, it becomes the rather interesting question: "How then shall we live?"
I would question whether such a theology is cold, dry or sterile, especially since I already suggested one very much like it, earlier in this thread. ;) What makes any theology cold, IMO, is an intellectual appreciation--an appreciation devoid of involvement by the entire self. I have attended a mainstream Methodist church where the Eucharist never occured, and where part of the actual service consisted of a treasurer's report: is this any less sterile than the sketchy outline Campbell skirted around?

The apophatic tradition has an absence of dogma, but that's not necessarily identical with the idea that God/Goddess/Whatever cannot by humanly conceived or visualized. I would suggest that it is possible to believe this is true, but still to seek out and worship with intensity various aspects of God-as-perceived that increase one's awareness and comprehension of it. Lacking the ability to understand anything in totality doesn't mean that one should give up the job, altogether.
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Waverly
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Post by Waverly »

@Gawain: Yes, applied science, though I actually enjoy the natural sciences more. That includes archeology.
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Post by thantor3 »

@fable: Are you suggesting that you like your theologies warm? :) Actually, I read your previous post and that was part of the impetus for mine. The difficulty I have in this area is with the limitation of language to adequately communicate about the topic we are discussing. If I am remembering my Wittgenstein correctly, words are tools but they require a context. The differing contexts each of us has makes it difficult to agree on a consensus. It’s the old thing about nobody having beliefs about cars, because cars are tangible. We mainly have beliefs, modified by culture, about things that are intangible such as which car is "the best." But it is this very intangibility that leads to the blind men and the elephant. Or solipsism.

To return to my temperature comment, in Chinese medicine a model called the Five Element Theory would ascribe the Fire element as hot and the Metal element as cold. But this doesn't imply that Metal is dry or sterile, only that it has a certain, and necessary, energetic property. Cold in this context means something like "structured/contracted." Within my own context, I was comparing the coolness of the apophatic tradition to the "warm" of something like the Pentacostals. Again, more of an energetic phrasing, meaning something like "less need for hand holding/personal projection/humanoid masks."

I completely agree that the inability to conceive of God/Whatever should not be a barrier to heartily pursuing the matter. I cannot put a name to this thought, but it concerned the fact that striving for the highest and falling short is far better than achieving the mundane. From your original post, your comment on the god-like power of creation fits in well here. But for me, the root of the god-like power is in the choice which proceeds the act of creation. I have often thought that if I was suddenly given god-like power, the only way to avoid ultimate insanity would be to choose to place those powers immediately into the service of the Ultimate Power. Point being that by fully experiencing the choice to open ourselves to the ultimate spiritual reality, we may not be able to comprehend God, but we may be able to grok Her. ;)
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Absence is to love what wind is to fire... it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.
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Post by fable »

@Thanator, thanks for the reply. I pretty much figured we were in accord on the apophatic point, but wanted it made clear for other readers--Goddess knows, I've been approached far too often by Unitarians claiming me for spiritual brotherhood, based on a simple misunderstanding of my beliefs.

That said, there's nothing wrong with having a "need for hand holding/personal projection/humanoid masks" to help focus worship: acknowledging the mask for what it is does not mean disavowing the thing that flows within the mask. It simply means that the mask isn't mistaken for the ultimate experssion of a universal God/Goddess.

My subconscious just reminded me of a quote from a Zelazny novel in which one of his heroes, a priest in an agnostic faith(!), utters a prayer (upon request) that goes something like "Divine Father, Mother, or Whatever Thou Art: please bless us, assuming you care to do so, and always assuming it is within your power to do so, as well, through the goodness of your divine nature, given, that is, that your nature is good, or, indeed, even fathomable..." It was much tighter and pithier in Zelazny, but that gives a feeling of its humorous content. Or to put it another way: the third son grows up, denies the reality of his cruel stepparents, and leaves home, empty-handed; but what kind of faerytale would it be if he was paralyzed forever by the choice of available directions? To know the world (I vowed to kill the next person who used "grok" in my presence, by the way--so consider yourself dead) is to commit to movement within it. Choices imply decisions, though all decisions are ultimately illusory. As you well know. ;)

Now that I've thoroughly confused everybody, including myself, I will once again subside. :)
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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thantor3
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Post by thantor3 »

Originally posted by fable:
To know the world (I vowed to kill the next person who used "grok" in my presence, by the way--so consider yourself dead)
RIP ;)

[ 06-11-2001: Message edited by: thantor3 ]
Those who will play with kitties must expect to be scratched.

Many are cold; few are frozen.

Absence is to love what wind is to fire... it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.
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