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VonDondu
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Post by VonDondu »

dragon wench wrote:one thing that occurs to me is we are literally looking at this from very different places. What I mean is that the issue of tort reform, or not, does not have the same resonance in Canada, for a whole number of reasons.
So, I suppose it isn't the same hot button issue (pun not intended)...which means I'm looking at just the incident itself rather than the wide ranging implications surrounding it.
I am looking at some of the broader implications of personal injury lawsuits, but I'm not looking at this issue through the lens of tort reform (pro or con). In other words, I'm not arguing for or against tort reform, and that doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm talking about (although I did point out that some people distort facts to argue in favor of their own agendas). I guess you could say I'm looking at the legal, economic, and ethical issues that are involved in cases like this simply because I'm "searching for the truth", if you will. I'm just doing this for intellectual enjoyment (so you shouldn't think I'm trying to be harsh or argumentative even when I take strong positions). Some people who can't understand how that appeals to anyone think I'm a strange person for doing things like that. :) If you read the message threads about Flame Warriors, I'm sort of like a lazy Big Cat. I play with threads that interest me, and once in a while I pounce. :)

The kinds of things I'm talking about were covered in various business, economics, and philosophy courses that I took in college. If you've ever read Richard Posner, I take sort of an economic approach to business law, although I have a great deal of concern for ethical issues as well. We used to do thought exercises that amounted to answering the question, "If you could create your own society, what sort of government would you prefer and what sort of laws would you enact?" I used to enjoy that kind of thing, and I still do to some degree. I'm not really thinking about current political movements (I can't stand the stupidity), and I'm not pushing for political reform out in the real world (I don't have the stomach for it); I'm just writing messages on an internet message board. :)
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Dowaco
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Post by Dowaco »

My view is that the company sold this woman a cup of hot coffee, which is exactly what she asked for. If it wasn't hot she would complain that it wasn't as advertised. Perhaps they make it hotter than what would be considered immediately drinkable is because it was to go. People get food to go so that they can enjoy it later. Later on when it was safe to open a hot beverage in a non-moving vehicle, the coffee would be at the "just right" temperature to drink. Most people blow over the top of a hot beverage to cool it somewaht before drinking. At 80+ this woman should have had more than her fair share of life experience to draw from. What she did with it after she takes possession is her responsibility. If she chooses to store it upside down in her lap, the company has no liability, zero. Same goes for cigarettes, handguns, and any legal product I can think of.

This is the poster child case for stupid lawsuits. I know if it happend to me, I would feel stupid about spilling it and be more careful in the future but it would never in a million years occur to me to sue McDonalds, or the auto manufacturer for not installing enough cup holders and shock absorbers or the maker of the cups that allowed hot beverages to be held in them when they could possibly tip over. (shouldn't they be wider at the bottom?) What about the driver of the car who did not drive in a responsible manner or all the other drivers on the road that day who caused the driver of the coffee car to jostle the drink. And if it weren't for that stop sign, the town government put there, this would not have happened.
No, 100% of the blame goes to one person and one person only. The 81 year old who made a mistake and had an accident. It's an awful thing to happen, and I know it was not a fun time in the hospital, but passing your misfortune on to others is cowardly and wrong.

The fact that 100's of people suffered burns out of billions of cups sold does not sway me. The percentage of foolhardy souls is higher than 1 in a million so the coffee is actually safer than walking down the street and tripping.
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VonDondu
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Post by VonDondu »

Dowaco, I'd like to ask you a hypothetical question to see if some slight changes to the facts might lead you to a different conclusion. Just for the sake of argument. :) Let's suppose someone asks you to pour hot water on their hand. They don't tell you how hot the water should be; they leave that to your judgment and your discretion. Let's say you pour near-boiling water on their hand since they asked for "hot" water. They would be severely injured, of course. Would you say they were 100% responsible for their injuries, since you "did what they asked you to do"?
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Dowaco
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Post by Dowaco »

If I injured them by knowingly pouring water on them that I knew was so hot they would be badly burned when they were expecting 20 deg cooler water, then yes, I would be partly responsible for inflicting the damage. People have different tolerance to heat though. My wife, for example can drink liquids I find way too hot. So what one person finds too hot, others might be OK with.

There is the mitigating situation of someone who asked to be actually burned, knowing they would be hurt. I can think of two cases where that might be a reasonable and or kinky request. In that case I would be a reluctant participant and regret the injury, but feel little liability.

If I asked someone to pour hot water on me for some odd reason and I got scaulded, I would not blame them 100% since i asked for it and they went a little overboard.

This case is about someone who spilled known hot water on THEMSELVES by accident. No one threw a cup of scaulding liquid with the intent to do harm.

Let me ask a question back. If a person prepares a cup of tea in their kitchen and boils water on the stove, pours it into a cup and carries it to the table to sit down, but slips and spills it on themselves, who do you sue? To me it makes no difference where the hot water came from. The act that caused the injury was not the responsibility of the person who gave you the liquid.
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VonDondu
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Post by VonDondu »

We disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion. Thanks for taking the time to answer my hypothetical question.

Dowaco wrote:Let me ask a question back. If a person prepares a cup of tea in their kitchen and boils water on the stove, pours it into a cup and carries it to the table to sit down, but slips and spills it on themselves, who do you sue?
A person who spills hot water on himself can't sue anybody. There's no legal remedy. Sorry for the "legal" answer, but the ethical answer is pretty much the same. Accidents happen. On the other hand, he can file a claim with his insurance company if he has appropriate medical coverage. That's what insurance is for. It doesn't mean that the insurance company is responsible for his injuries. The purpose of an insurance policy is to collect money from a lot of people to spread risk and compensate people who need the money. Nowadays, insurance companies act like all of the money is their money, but the concept of pooling resources to minimize risk has been around for a long time.

Dowaco wrote:To me it makes no difference where the hot water came from. The act that caused the injury was not the responsibility of the person who gave you the liquid.
I think there are degrees of safety, and I think you should be able to sue someone for damages if you are the victim of their idiotic behavior, especially if you are engaged in a commercial transaction with them. If you buy a cup of hot coffee and spill it on yourself, I believe that most of the responsibility falls on yourself. That's reasonable, and it's just common sense. I think people should know better than to hold a cup of hot coffee on their laps inside a car. But there is a BIG difference between a 130 degree cup of coffee and a 190 degree cup of coffee. Handing a cup of 190 degree coffee to every customer who comes through a drive-thru is insane. Your wife might be able to drink 130 degree coffee (that's just about the limit of human tolerance and most people can't handle it), but it is physically impossible to touch, much less drink, 190 degree coffee--it actually cooks the skin. If I knew that someone was handing me a 190 degree cup of coffee, I wouldn't touch it. If I knew that it was 190 degrees and accepted it anyway, I would certainly bear more responsibility if I accidentally spilled it since I agreed to take it. But the key here is that people don't realize that they're getting something so dangerous. A reasonable person who asks for a cup of hot coffee does not expect to be handed something so dangerous. There's a reasonable expectation that yes, the coffee will be hot to the touch, but nobody expects it to be so hot that it can cause third degree burns. If you heat the water on the stove yourself, that's a different issue. You can see for yourself how hot it is. But if you're trusting someone else's judgment, then you can hold them liable if they do something stupid, especially if they do it deliberately when they know full well what the consequences will be.

If you're engaged in a commercial transaction with someone and their actions lead directly to an injury, commercial law holds them partially or sometimes completely responsible. I know that begs the question, but we're talking about principles and precedents and standard business practices that date back hundreds of years. It might be an arbitrary principle, but it's a time-tested principle that has been challenged, debated, and supported by some of the greatest minds in history. And quite simply, it is an established principle. It's a rule that people have to follow if they want to run a business. People who don't want to follow the rules shouldn't be selling coffee. Or they should move to Canada--HA HA. :) It's really that simple.
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dragon wench
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Post by dragon wench »

@Dowaco,
the thing is, however, in the hot coffee case the vehicle was not in fact moving. Rather, the woman's son-in-law (who was driving) parked so that she could add cream and sugar. Unfortunately, media reports at the time seriously misrepresented the case and made it a lot more ridiculous than it originally was.
Personally, however, I have always felt that the woman should have born a far greater share of the responsibility than she actually did.

@Von Dondu,
I saw your comments regarding tort reform and I also know that this case tends to be a rallying cry for conservatives seeking tort reform; so much so, that they often perpetuate the distortion surrounding it. My apologies for reading into something that was not there.
In this case, the injured woman was found to be 20% responsible, so McDonald's was not held entirely responsible. We could disagree about the percentages, but I think a sharing of responsibility and a corresponding damage award is fair.
I do not argue against a sharing of blame, sorry, I should have been more clear. Indeed, I entirely agree, culpability rests with both sides. I guess part of the difference is that I feel the percentages should have broken down into something like 60 to 40, with Stella Liebeck taking the lion's share of responsibility.
I admit, though, I do have some trouble with the notion of breaking down ethical and legal questions like this into quantifiable measures. To me, there are far too many highly subjective variables at work. But, admittedly, I don't think like an economist.

The way I see it, Stella Liebeck should have used far more common sense than she did. She was holding, between her knees, a flimsy cup of hot coffee and she pulled the lid off of it. Now, elderly people and children are far more sensitive to extreme temperatures, which was argued in this case. But, if Liebeck was hurt by her greater sensitivity to heat, than surely she would have felt the high temperature of the coffee when she initially held it in her hand and when she placed it between her knees.
To me, personally, this shows a total lack of common sense. Placing anything between the knees, much less a flimsy cup of hot liquid, is hardly stable. Added to this, think of the sitting positions in the back seat of a car, your knees and legs are far more likely to be angled rather than straight out, which will reduce stability yet further. If you open the container, the chances of it sloshing out are very high. No, the vehicle was not moving, it was stationary, but even so, this was an extremely stupid thing to do, and Stella Liebeck, in my mind, bears much more than 20% of the blame.

The defense in this case argued that the majority of customers like their coffee hot, and they also argued that McDonald's was serving the coffee according to industry standards. Another point made was that while there were about 700 previous cases against the temperature of McDonald's coffee, these were a mere fraction of the billions upon billions of cups sold without incident.

Now, while I was researching this case initially I found that the industry standard for hot coffee seems to vary dramatically, ranging anywhere from 130 to 200 degrees. It is also a point for debate where Liebeck's case is concerned. Thus, to me, when the plaintiff's lawyers stated that McDonald's coffee temperatures were above industry standards I do have to hesitate. Yes, they were on the high end of the spectrum, undeniably, but did they exceed the accepted range? Were they breaking a law by serving coffee at a temperature the majority of customers enjoy it at?
Who is at fault here? Certainly, when they became aware of the problem, McDonald's should have started taking measures to ensure that their cups had large warning signs, and perhaps for Drive Thru customers they should have started using larger cups than normal to reduce the chance of spillage.
But, I still do not think this is enough to justify a lawsuit against the company, especially one of this proportion. Granted, Liebeck did not actually receive the 2.7 million dollars in damages, she actually ended up with something less than $600 thousand dollars, which wasn't really much, all things considered.

Regarding the argument that these 700 previous cases represent a fraction of all the coffee served, I honestly do feel this is callous. But, if we do look at this in quantifiable measures, there is more than a grain of logic involved. The overwhelmingly vast majority of McDonald's coffee drinkers manage to safely consume their beverages without incident. I do think this holds a certain amount of leverage when weighing up responsibility here.


Okay, that is all I can write for more, but I'll try to find more time later.
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VonDondu
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Post by VonDondu »

dragon wench wrote:I do not argue against a sharing of blame, sorry, I should have been more clear. Indeed, I entirely agree, culpability rests with both sides. I guess part of the difference is that I feel the percentages should have broken down into something like 60 to 40, with Stella Liebeck taking the lion's share of responsibility.
That's reasonable. I could even accept an argument that Stella was 80% or 90% responsible if you made a really good case. But not 100%.

So...SUE! SUE! SUE! :)
dragon wench wrote:Who is at fault here? Certainly, when they became aware of the problem, McDonald's should have started taking measures to ensure that their cups had large warning signs, and perhaps for Drive Thru customers they should have started using larger cups than normal to reduce the chance of spillage.
But, I still do not think this is enough to justify a lawsuit against the company, especially one of this proportion...
I find that odd, since you're willing to admit that McDonalds was partially responsible for Stella's injuries. Why isn't she entitled to some compensation from them? I can't see any way to balance the idea that McDonalds was partially responsible for her injuries but they shouldn't have to give her any compensation at all.

When you first mentioned this lawsuit, you said that children should be taught to avoid the temptation to take such matters to court. Is that because you think this is a frivolous lawsuit?

dragon wench wrote:Were they breaking a law by serving coffee at a temperature the majority of customers enjoy it at?
That's an unfortunate way of framing the issue. No, they weren't breaking any law, because it wasn't illegal to sell 190 degree coffee to drive-thru customers. But that's not what personal injury cases are all about. They're about making individuals or companies pay for all or part of the damages if they are found to be directly responsible, in whole or in part, for a person's injuries. Such cases usually do not involve illegal activities; they usually involve negligence. No reasonable person has said that McDonalds intended to harm Stella. But when accidents happen and there's a "cause of action" because another party was at fault, the responsible party must compensate the victim. We're living in a commercial society, and lawsuits and damage awards just come with the territory.

dragon wench wrote:I admit, though, I do have some trouble with the notion of breaking down ethical and legal questions like this into quantifiable measures. To me, there are far too many highly subjective variables at work. But, admittedly, I don't think like an economist.
If you have two people and one of them is alive and one of them is dead, then statistically both of them are 50% dead.
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dragon wench
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Post by dragon wench »

VonDondu wrote:
When you first mentioned this lawsuit, you said that children should be taught to avoid the temptation to take such matters to court. Is that because you think this is a frivolous lawsuit?
*sigh* I'm still here... getting caught up in philosophical conversations.. :o
So, to be quick I'll answer the above for now.

I feel children should be taught to accept personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions, whether they bear all of the blame or some of it, it doesn't matter, they need to understand the direct link between cause and effect. In all of the material I have read on this case, I have yet to read anywhere that Stella Liebeck accepted any degree of culpability. Indeed, even when the judge made his 20/80 ruling, she, as well as, McDonald's contested it.
Do I think this is frivolous? I think the problem here is that it is very difficult to determine whether or not a case is frivolous before it has been heard and examined by the courts. So, technically no case presented before a court is frivolous. However, I do believe people should look in the mirror and think about their own share of blame in an issue before launching a lawsuit.
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Lady Dragonfly
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Post by Lady Dragonfly »

dragon wench wrote: Now, while I was researching this case initially I found that the industry standard for hot coffee seems to vary dramatically, ranging anywhere from 130 to 200 degrees.
Does anybody know how these industry "standards" are established? Somehow I seriously doubt there are any "FDA-approved" temperature standards that can hold any legal water (or hot coffee in this case). I hope there are not. :rolleyes:

<Coffee connoisseur William McAlpin, an importer and wholesaler in Bar Harbor, Maine, who owns a coffee plantation in Costa Rica, says 175 degrees is "probably the optimum temperature, because that's when aromatics are being released. Once the aromas get in your palate, that is a large part of what makes the coffee a pleasure to drink." >

I am sorry for the elderly lady and 700 other victims of coffee spils but I have to confess that I have difficulty to fully comprehend what consumers really expect from a cup of coffee temperature-wise. "Safely" warm coffee is not good for your taste buds. Hot coffee is... well, hot. 175 degrees is hot, period. Any hot liquid that stays on the thin clothing for 15-20 seconds can burn your skin pretty badly. Failure to know that leads to nasty accidents.
Nasty accidents end up in courts. Failure to disclose that "our hot coffee can burn you" cost McDonalds some money.
Smart companies don't like lawsuits, frivolous or otherwise. Not so smart learn quickly.
That is why they want us to read disclaimers in fine print on two pages and sign the paper.
I can't blame them. I don't like lawsuits too.
That is my simple-minded non-economist and non-lawyer consumer opinion. :)

Should we teach our kids legal basics and common sense in school? Absolutely. Should we assume the lesson will be so well-learnt that all safeguards will become obsolete? Are you kidding? We can teach them "this is hot, don't touch it" (metaphorically speaking) and some of them will touch it anyway, just to contradict all common sense they were taught.
The safety in our schools is a much hotter issue than any coffee. Any attempts to improve safety are welcome.
Kids don't like restraints any more than we do. Actually, less. And some safety measures are unpopular or plainly stupid; that tells me that the school officials are getting real desperate. And I am sympathetic towards their predicament.
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LordAce
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Post by LordAce »

To get back to the OP, I am actually surprised that this hasn't happened sooner. How many of you played on merry-go-rounds when you were kids? How many do you see at parks or schools? Same goes with teeter-totters (sp?), at least where I live, they have gotten rid of all of them. When I was in elementary school, lots of kids would end up with scrapes and bruises from playing on merry-go-rounds and teeter-totters, but most of the "major" injuries occured when playing basketball, football, etc. What's next? No more sports? It's ridiculous, but the schools do need to protect themselves from lawsuits when they are already underfunded.
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