A more serious SYM thread (no spam)

[ch85us2001]

[QUOTE=Phreddie]It is illogical.

and yet so not.

we are doing this for ourselves, or atleast I am, I cannot, will no force my views on others, it is wrong, it is against what i believe, i believe it is ok to inform, have an intelligent discussion and back off where unwelcome, i see that I am unwelcome with you, unless your up for a good, friendly argument, love those myself, but i pormise you i will not force my decisions on you, i have not the authority, nor does anyone else, (maybe be buck but he cant change a mind, only the superficial), if in my talks/rants/spam, i make you uncomfortable tell me and ill back off.[/QUOTE]
No, I was out of line there and Im sorry, but my veiw stands.

Now I will settle down and have a friendly discussion.

[Phreddie]

good, i was worried for a moment you were going to leave, id stop coming too if there were no SF, id pop in at random moments... but i wouldnt be a regullar any more. If i go preacher again, kick me.

[ch85us2001]

I just dont believe you can fit conformity on to something so nonconformall (I know that cant be a real word.)
I think it would, to use Iks words, kill SYM. I believe the people who support would like it for a while, then wish it were back to the way it is now.

[Ravager]

Okay, my reponse to this…

I see this as a rehash of the Old vs. New debate that continues to crop up without resolution. And it is impossible for me not to draw paralells between ‘SYM’s decline’ and that situation regarding spam.

The conditions were already present when they decided to join on SYM

When do you see the initial point for this? I see it as a gradual thing that has always been the case. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone who has been around longer than you to say the same and so on.

The expectations and rituals and everything that seemed to form the foundation of the old SYM are either rotting or evolving, whichever has your fancy.

The perception of SYM is a purely individual thing. What you say SYM is, could be completely different to someone who joined at the same time etc. And of course, the extension of this is that some people will be happy and some will not.

"We must learn to live with the evolution of SYM as a natural occurence over time and we can't expect SYM to always be the same BLABLABLA" I can't live with that and I want SYM to return to glory.

Well, I can live with it, despite the odd occasion when I may not like where a topic turns. However, this is part of respecting other people and what they wish a place or topic to be.

How about forming an etiquette to raise the standard?

If you are suggesting a set of rules or at least guidelines, you have to consider all the knock-on effects of this. Possibly it will deal with what you consider is bad, however it is likely to ‘scare’ new people off, irritate others (by having to carefully monitor ecvery sentence they write) and you’ll lose a lot of what makes SYM what it is and what it was.

What about ignoring those who are irritated? Not giving a damn about those oldies who wish their SYM stayed unspammed and educated and much the same.

Well, there’s been plenty of spam threads and topics that have ‘degenerated’ to spam over time. I’m sure that’s no symptom of just recent times.

I guess one of the problems with the Spam threads is that people that are frequently posting on them sometimes forget that you are not supposed to simply spam serious threads.

This may occasionly be the case, but there are many threads monitored over GB and they haven’t fallen apart with new members spamming them. Nor do I see the same happening in SYM. And when that does happen, who dissuades it from happening?

Not classy spam, when you spam and answer, as Bloodstalker has done in many ocasions.

Again, a personal opinion, rather than generally accepted.

Without wishing to go for any imposition of standards, it would help me if you would list just what ingredients of SYM you feel should be maintained and are being eroded.

I would agree, I have seen much of ‘old’ members reminiscing about old times and members that are no longer around, but no definitive list. And then, even if there was one, would you really wish to impose such standards? Do you really have the right to do so?

IMO if someone wants to change the face of SYM, they should set a good example

I agree, teaching by example works the best way, at least initially. If there continue to be problems then they are dealt with in a polite and understanding manner. Initial rules/guidelines stifle.

The purpose of this discussion, as I interpret it, is to divine the nature of this example, find what exactly is wrong, what is causing the wrong, and how to mend the wounds.

IMO, this is a discussion where the old members say what they liked and lament the passing of these times and their inability to change this. Sure, you can implement rules, but in the end you don’t dictate who joins and what kind of result would that have anyway, nothing likeable.

I liked it fine earlier, though now, I am seeking rmoe contentment, and spam just doesnt do it for me any more

I’ve seen this happen a lot. But generally it is not limited to a specific change in SYM. It’s getting fed up of a lifestyle for example.

Okay, that’s my point of view.
I tried to discuss it logically and my apologies to anyone offended by my views.

Ravager.

[Phreddie]

thats another thing that needs to be discussed, I thnak you for bringing it up:

Will it beworth it in the long run, will we adhere to what we say, will it reamain true to the day we leave? I believe there should be no discussion myself, everyone needs to post a view, saying this is who I am, this is what I believe, and this is what I will do. It is not a binding contract, it is just a way of letting people know themselves and their intentions. SYM wont be better, ever, it will be different, and thats all that will ever be, I will post myself tomorow after I have had time to think, colect my thoughts, until them, Im off, to spam sleep and eat.

[Hill-Shatar]

Well, Fiona, chu has been a much more active historian... although from what I see Phreddie is quickly catching up...

I have read through a lot of old threads... and when I mean a lot, I mean possibly several thousand by now. I have not been exactly keeping count.

To me, I think there has been some tension, some negativity, but SYM has gone through these periods multiple times before. Points where even common jokes were taken as insults.

SYM culture has changed, sure... new crowds come in , old crowds leave. To tell you the truth, I admire people such as Aegis, dragon wench, CE, Dottie, Fable, Xandax... all who have stayed around through the shifting sands of time. Consistently posting as they always have.

I have noticed certain sways in tones of SYM, but mostly because of the jumps I take. Many a time, I skip serious threads, because that would be an hour where I would learn very little of any person here. That has given me a view of what is going on at an increased speed. Some thickskinned people were shaven until they left, and others came and stayed, and decided to lurk away, like Tom, or Delacroix.

The 'death' of the old SYM never happened. It just grew. From a small group of people posting together, to a hugfe group posting in different time zones around the world, en masse in different threads. Sometimes people go through phases when they lurked, instead of posted, for long periods of time.

I can see what you mean that we newbies may not post the same way as Gruntboy, Vehemence or FoulDwimmerLaik (Guessing that last one) but I have read through the past threads, and to tell you the truth, threads and polls have begun to make more sense then they once did. They ust did not extend as long as they do now.

Pointing out, some people, like Yshania, still have contact with a great many old folks around. In fact, most of the people you see today are just after the original old group, and I am sure they moped and mumbled that it wasn;t the same anymore. All of a sudden, they had new upstart posters like Ik, and Luis, who didn't post the same way Vehemence did! People will always notice gaps in places where something used to be, but had it been there in the first place, would you have noticed?

SYM is not dying, in my opinion. Perhaps in twenty years, none of us will be around to rememnisce about what happened here. Hell, most of us will be reaching our forties or fifties (or seventies) by that time, and will have settled ibnto a life. Will that life involve popping in to GameBanshee daily for me?

Will we be the same people we were then? If Waverly came back, for a time, instead of posting a Hello-I'm-Back-Did-You-All-Miss-Me-Oops-Look-At-The-Time-Goodbye thread, are you totally sure he would post the same as he once did? Chu participates more in discussions now then he once did (no offence at all) so is he posting the same way he has for the last six months? Let alone six years?

Now, we have new holes being punched in the fabric of SYM. New holes with new properties of people from all ages, sizes, and types of humour filling around you once again. Yet some holes remain open, and those are the holes that seem to attract all the longing and the nostaligia you get from reading these threads.

I hope never to have to fill in for any member. I am not as precise as CE, as knowledgeable (widely) as fable, or as humourous as Luis, or as perverted as dragon wench. Nor do I think I am as memorable as some of the others. I am a different person that fits nicely into this hole I punched myself upon stumbling into SYM to post.

In my opinion, the subtle change of air and change in SYM has not been great. Same types of pubs, same types of thread, and sometimes, the same conversations pop up over and over again. Hell, the sheep and goats never get rest! For now, this newbie is quite content with how things are today.

The opinion of the newbie, anyways. Ramblings, more like.

[Yshania]

Ah, another decline of SYM discussion, perhaps?
Short of sounding insincere, been there and done it, a few times. I guess if we could just step back and accept that group dynamics will always change when someone leaves, and someone joins. Whether for good or for bad, it is inevitable (thankfully!)
When I joined, the board was less than six months old and there were less than 2000 people, there are more than 25,000 members now!
And I don't think we can blame the spam, per se, I recall one decline of SYM discussion that blamed too many serious threads and lamented the lack of spam!
I wonder who are the old crew now? lol! :laugh:

[Luis Antonio]

[QUOTE=Yshania]
And I don't think we can blame the spam, per se, I recall one decline of SYM discussion that blamed too many serious threads and lamented the lack of spam!
I wonder who are the old crew now? lol! :laugh: [/QUOTE]

Heh, yes, I'm considering myself older crew. I'm not spamming anymore, and I'm not humorous anymore as (thanks, Hill) some think. I'm disapointed, and I guess so is ik, and maybe we're trying to find out who we are and what should we do.

Funny, the way you put yourself into the discussion, Ysh. Realy, made me smile. You're so confortable with it

[Yshania]

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Heh, yes, I'm considering myself older crew. I'm not spamming anymore, and I'm not humorous anymore as (thanks, Hill) some think. I'm disapointed, and I guess so is ik, and maybe we're trying to find out who we are and what should we do.

Funny, the way you put yourself into the discussion, Ysh. Realy, made me smile. You're so confortable with it [/QUOTE]

Hmmm...now I come to think of it, you have lost newbie status for me, even though I don't post so much anymore....hope this doesn't disappoint you! :laugh:

ROFL!! I guess you could say I've been around too long in SYM to be phased so easily now :mischief:

Maybe - after a while - some feel a little "spent" if you like. The "been there and dunnit" feeling. I lurk a lot, but don't post so much now. I still enjoy following some of the discussions, even though I am not around often enough to keep up with the spam, lol!

[C Elegans]

I don't have time to post anything more in depth about this since I have to write up an article before I leave in 10 hours, but I agree with Hill's and Yshania's points, especially Yshania - perhaps because both she and I have been here for quite a long time.

Ah, another decline of SYM discussion, perhaps?

Perhaps we should start discussing the decline of the decline-of-SYM-threads?

And I don't think we can blame the spam, per se, I recall one decline of SYM discussion that blamed too many serious threads and lamented the lack of spam!

The "decline of SYM"-concept has been blamed on too many new members and loss of old members, too few new members and thus stagnation among old members, too much serious discussion and too much spam.

I guess if we could just step back and accept that group dynamics will always change when someone leaves, and someone joins. Whether for good or for bad, it is inevitable (thankfully!)

Dynamics is the key word here. We all exist in a temporal flow. Time passes, things change. Moments cannot be preserved, states depending on many changing variables cannot be everlasting, and why should they? On the contrary, the flow of people and the group dynamics is part of what has made me stay at SYM. A mix of different people and familiar people, with different opinions, styles and interests.

[Hill-Shatar]

The "decline of SYM"-concept has been blamed on too many new members and loss of old members, too few new members and thus stagnation among old members, too much serious discussion and too much spam.

I have a sidden urge to site the thread starters of the last ten threads like that, but I think I'll stay quiet for now.

Undoubtedly, all the issues of SYM will eventually come charging through in a thread sooner or later. I am quite content with anything that is tossed on these days.

I don't have time to post anything more in depth about this since I have to write up an article before I leave in 10 hours, but I agree with Hill's and Yshania's points, especially Yshania - perhaps because both she and I have been here for quite a long time.

I'm taking the neighbour's kid to see Harry Potter some time soon, probably at six, so I am somewhat happy that we don't have posts 6 times the size going on in this thread. Too bad, I needed a good read.

I am quite sure that in six months someone will notice something is missing soon, it is inevitable. It is difficult for many people to spam when half the things they refer too are totally random for newer people who don't spend time in the archives of dust, reading something about CE's couch and her lap.

When things like this start happening, I think it is always a good time to start something new to get some more memories that I can read back on in a year's time ands that you all can talk about to confuse those who just joined.

[dragon wench]

I suppose one thing I've noticed is that now SYM seems to have several threads that are sort of self-contained "mini-SYMS."
I speak of places like the "Spam Factory," and "The Heathen Citadel."
These threads seem to be the home of generalised chitchat. My memory could be fuzzy on this, but I have the recollection that in previous times casual conversation was more spread out across the forum.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, and I'm not necessarily saying that it's all about a decline of spam or some such, it's just an observation.

Two things are true though; as has already been pointed out, communities change. Also, I think it was Hericl!tis who said, "you can never step into the same river twice."

[Phreddie]

Never step in the same river twice? It can be done! If your un down stream faster than the water ytou cna cross through the exact same patch of river, albeit at different banks!

I still hold to what I said earlier, althought now that some 'oldies' have... enlightened this thread, i agree with chu, nostaliga is pointless, especially when, for me at least, there is nothing to be nostalgic about, this thread just came at a certain point in my life, it struck me, opened my eyes, and it brought htings out of me, things i thought but never said, now ive said them, now i know what i think isnt just thought, its truth, to me. All truths are not so, for all statements are relative to the thoughts, beliefs, and truths, of everyone.

[Luis Antonio]

[QUOTE=dragon wench]I suppose one thing I've noticed is that now SYM seems to have several threads that are sort of self-contained "mini-SYMS."
I speak of places like the "Spam Factory," and "The Heathen Citadel."
These threads seem to be the home of generalised chitchat. My memory could be fuzzy on this, but I have the recollection that in previous times casual conversation was more spread out across the forum.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, and I'm not necessarily saying that it's all about a decline of spam or some such, it's just an observation.
"[/QUOTE]

I guess that happened because, at least it is why I did the HC and kept posting on it, sometimes it was very hard to post on other threads, where people would attack with sharp sticks anyone who dared to come close. And for the newbie, or the one who dont like to strangle himself with a hard english conversation (me at the beggining) the HC was far more confortable to be in. And of course, it is the (by far) more successfull pub

[TonyMontana1638]

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Its not a matter about Ik standards, Tony, please, he's talking about something I'm sure many people want to know about. He wants opinions, so why not telling yours instead of pointing him the finger and saying "you want me to be pre formatted?"
[/QUOTE]

Actually I did give my opinions, please see above...
No finger was being pointed: he came up with the concept of 'standards' for SYM, therefore I only though it necessary to identify them with him. It was meant in the context of "Ik's concept of standards", not "Ik's rules". Sorry for that, completely my mistake.

As for the HC and SF, what Luis just said about the HC held true for me about the SF; it seemed to be the least intimidating of places from which to get involved in SYM and acted as a wonderful stepping-stone to bigger and better SYM threads (it's still my favorite place of residence). Is it the "generalized chit-chat" there part of the problem? I'm trying to understand here.

[ik911]

Some questions arise over why I made this thread.
As you might have read, I did so uncomfortably. I felt an open, seperate discussion had to be held and now was the time.

Ofcourse, I've witnesses more of those SYM-decline threads and discussions, the most recent one being inside the HC, which brought forth the SF.

The been-there-done-that syndrom as well as nostalgia-repulsiva both crossed my mind.

I hope to clear things out of the way by making this thread. Irritation mainly. There's people complaining to me over MSN and I have the feeling SYM's changing. I found it was time to lay those hidden knots on the table.

I'm glad people share there opinions on the matter, also from you chu, although you seem to be sort of angry with me, but you must understand that I don't hate newbies. I was just summing up possible causes for the things I percieved.
Also, I don't see an etiquette as a realistic option, as you could have read.

For SYM to stay SYM and not an other forum, it needs to maintain certain qualities that I can't really clearly define.
SYM should be a place for discussing things, serious and non-serious, of all fields, of all kinds, of any type.

Now, I'm not against change, nor do I try to convince anyone to believe in anything. I challenge the reader of this thread to speak up, also the newbies, for they play an important role in the future of SYM.

I've seen very interesting replies and seeing how many replies there were, I see I touched something.

[Aramant]

I guess I'm a newbie.

I didn't realize there was any form of heirarchy of authority or status on this forum. I was under the impression that "Speak Your Mind" was actually an invitation to do just that. After reading this thread, I get the impression that a number of people take it to mean "speak your mind... provided we approve". My understanding of the workings of this forum was that the only guidelines I had to follow were those put forth in the code of conduct, enforced by the moderators. After reading this thread, I realize I was wrong. Apparently I also have to cater to the aesthetic tastes of people who have been here longer than me. People who, though they have no legitimate or official reign over what is posted, nevertheless seem to believe that what they think and believe may be more important than what I think and believe, simply because I joined later, or I'm not as prolific in my posts.

I resent the implication that whatever I might say on this forum could go largely dismissed simply because the join date in my profile is later than others, or my post count isn't above a certain number, or because I haven't poured over ridiculously long threads that I frankly couldn't care less about. I don't care about what the female forum account holders may or may not do with a whip in any given situation, so I have no interest in reading the "Temple of SYM Temptresses" thread. I am not tempted by them. But after reading this thread, I almost feel as though I'm expected to be, or that I should at least fake it in order to be given the bare minimum of respect by people with a four-digit post count.

That said, I think it's arrogant and pretentious of anyone on this forum to presume that they are owed respect, or have the right to bestow approval, simply because they've been around longer than I have. After reading this thread, I've finally become aware of the deeply rooted plague of elitism that seems to pervade this forum. It's sickening. Furthermore, I don't think I should have to earn the approval of anyone, for whatever reason, let alone a reason so petty and meaningless as the number of posts one has in an online forum.

Incidentally, that's exactly what this is: an online forum. Nothing more. I check this forum from time to time to see if anything particularly interesting has been posted, but by and large it seems to be a continuing circle jerk among the old guard, repeating the same inside jokes, rehashing the same repetitions of dialogue, and generally perpetuating the same banality day after day. Banality that, while comforting for those involved, nonetheless serves to stifle new members from engaging in the conversation. If a thread is built upon inside jokes and "you had to be there" reminiscing, any new people reading it will be left out.

On the rare occasion that something catches my interest, I'll post a reply. However, this forum is not a key aspect of my life, nor is it something I really care about. Sometimes it's interesting, and sometimes it's funny, but I'm not here to ingratiate myself to those who have come before me, nor do I find it necessary for anyone here to approve of me, let alone like me. And again, I resent the opinion that many people on this forum seem to have to the contrary. It's conceited, rude, and wholly misplaced.

This is a public online message forum, not a private club. If I want to post, I'm going to do so. I'm going to follow the code of conduct, and adhere to what the moderators say. I'm not going to cater to the nostalgia or sensibilities of people I've never met.

I'm here to speak my mind. Not blow smoke up anyone's backside.

[Aegis]

Last time I become involved in this discussion, I was a Moderator. No so this time...

Having said that, my opinion from the last discussion remains unchanged. I believe SYM has changed, drastically, and has done so a couple times. This is simply because of the nature of communities (Yes, regardless what some other members may chose to believe, SYM is a community, much like a neighbourhood in a town or city). I have some very clear ideas on why it has changed.

Now, my opinion on whether it has changed for the better, or the worse, well let us just be clear that my position previously had me biting my tongue quite a bit. I honestly feel that SYM has changed for the worse, but not in the nostaligic where has so-and-so vanished to sort of way. No, I feel the way SYM has poorly changed is in the fact that everything is becoming horribly structured and ruled, so to speak.

The fact that 'no spam' tags are required on threads of 'serious' discussion, and that any comment that is slightly off topic is met with near hostility and terse reminders of said 'no spam' title.

The fact that a certain level of etiquette has been lost, because of the fact that any form of 'spam' is so strictly monitored and enclosed, that the fun spontinaty of spam that made the older SYM so phenominally fun has disappeared, replaced with an almost manufactured feel.

Essentially, it is this repression of freedom and spontinaty that I miss the most. Times when a thread could easily take a radically different turn than its original intentions, and that the vast majority of members not only enjoyed such a turn, but it was welcomed! It was the sort of environment which let posters like Waverly, Vehemence, Mr. Sleep, FoulDimmerLaik and Gruntboy flourish and thrive, and I dare say, it is what attracted a great deal of new SYMer's.

I've been around since the start, not just of SYM, but pretty much Gamebanshee as a whole (It was around for about three months before I joined), and I have watched the evolution of the forums, and the gradual turn towards a PC, regulated environment.

People speak of the 'old' SYM being a highly educational, serious type of forum. That was the middle years of SYM. The old one was truly something else, especially when finding the medium of spam and serious. We found that happy medium though, and I would honestly consider that to have been the 'golden' era of SYM.

I do not blame the change on the new members, or humour that has been brought into SYM. That comes with the changing times, and is to be expected. The blame the regulating of aspects I feel did not need such regulating. SYM, to me, suffered from the 'if it isn't broke, don't fix it' syndrome. Only, some people thought that they needed to fix it...

[TonyMontana1638]

Listen, I apologize if my earlier posts were a little more hostile than they should have been (though I'd argue this was more through misinterpretation than anything, the fault still being mine, however), but I was definitely getting a vibe of arrogance from this whole situation. I'm glad to see it's developed more into the discussion it was supposed to be, but reading the initial reasoning behind this thread (and some of the follow up posts) I wasn't offended at all: I knew Ik wasn't really intending to flame the new-kids-on-the-block, but I really got a sense of a "everything was fine until you showed up... things were better back then, back when WE ran things and didn't Spam off-topic at the drop of a hat".

I'm obviously not the only one who has felt this way either: it's a sad fact that many new posters have a hard time getting into the mix and becoming established to be taken at elast kind of seriously. Most everyone here is really nice, but Arament is right that there is elitism here. It took me a long night's discussion with Hill on the topics of Spam and Fable before anyone listened to me: Rav, Slade, phred and others were the next to welcome me and now I feel farily comfortable here. I still don't feel everything I say is regarded the same way as some of the older members, but you can't have everything . Anyway bringing this up is not an excuse for me to complain, but everyone here needs to realize this. Arament's comments I agree with for the most part, though the tone is a little flame-esque (i don't mean to judge you friend, as I'm sure you were going for that anyway ), and I hope the motivation behind then isn't lost on all.

I regard the actual problem of the older members feeling nostalgic about the good ol' days as something that was bound to happen eventually: let's face it, noone likes to see good times end. If I'm still around in 2 years time I may be feeling the same way. Do they have to end, however? Changes aren't a bad thing, and how in the hell do you stop change anyway? Aegis's post interested me, as I had thought the main issue here was the offbeat Spam seeping into threads where it wasn't really welcome, whereas it seems that back in the day there was even MORE of this. What then is the problem? I just don't see it other than the explanation that older members everyone seems to like and miss have moved on. If that's the case then for the love of God we can't do anything about that, so what's the point of lamenting it?
If you SYM vets give us a shot, most of us young'uns are pretty fun characters to be around ...

In conclusion I don't want my SYM to change, regardless of whether it was 'better' or 'worse' back in the day.

[Bloodstalker]

This whole thing pops up every so often. I've been back and forth over it, but I've come to the conclusion that yes SYM has changed, but so what?

Here's my two cents worth. SYM is a constantly evolving thing. To say that the daparture or older members or the integration of new members causes a forum tyo change in ways that make it somehow less than what it was to me at this point seems about as odd as saying that the world is somehow diminished when a younger generation takes over as the older generation grows old and dies. To me, it's a miniature version of the same principle, only faster paced due to the nature of the internet. Older members drift away, younger members move in. Newer members may not have the same views or style as the older members, but that's not to say it's worse.

Regarding any golden age of SYM, speaking strictly from a personal standpoint, to me my idea of a golden age of the forum has absolutly nothing to do with they styles of posters or the content of threads or what should be considered spam or not spam. Plain and simple, my idea is based on the members who were active while I was really active. I got to know most of them and had a lot of fun with people like Ned, the DF, Weasel, Waverly, AC and so forth. After awhile, for one reason or another most of the people I was hanging out with then left for one reason or another. After awhile I found myself with less and less time to post as well. As a result, I know very few of the newer members in anything more than a casual passing way. It's not a reflection of how I feel about new people, it's the simple fact that I knew the people I used to post with much better than I know the newer crowd and that I simply don;t have the same amount of time to post anymore.

I will say this though. Talking and complaining about what's gone wrong or how to fix it is pointless. If you don;'t like serious threads, avoid them. If you don;t like silly threads, avoid them. If you don;t like the kind of conversation that is going on, don't participate in it. If you're looking for better conversation or discussion construct your posts to reflect that. You get exactly what you put into anything back out of it. So start thread about things you are interested in or that you thing are suitable. If other people find them interesting or you match their style of posting then they will join in. If they don't they won't.

And last, and don;t take this as a slight or a personal remark, but quite simply if you don;t like SYM or think that it's up to your standards; leave and go somewher else. And I'm not being flippant here or anything, but just stating my stance on it. When I came to SYM, had it not had elements that encouraged me to stay here I would have simply moved on. I've done it with other boards. It's all about what you want and what you don't. your experience is individual and as such will vary from person to person. If you asked twenty people to define what makes SYM good or bad, you'll likely get twenty different answers. You simply have to look at the board, consider what you expect out of the board, and then do one of two things. Attempt to proactivley create that atmosphere through your posts (day to day posts, not the "why are things so bad" posts", or move on until you find a board that does meet your needs as a poster.

Again, I'm not telling anyone to leave, nor am I acting out in a manner that screams "You don't like it here, then get lost and take your bad attitude with you". I'm simply saying that every message board isn't for everyone and theres nothing wrong with that. But imposing standards or regulations isn;t the way to go. No one told me how to post when I got here. I didn;t post much at first either. I don't like to think of the way I post as being a style I either constructed or conformed to. I post the way I talk. I post the way I post and the manner of content I have in those posts is a direct reflection of my personality. I'm the same way offline as I am here. It just happened that at the time when I was most active I was associateding with a large number of individual who shared my sense of humor or that I enjoyed talking to. I'm 100% positive that if I still had the same amount of free time to post as I did then I'd find just as many people I would enjoy talking to here now. As far as the rest is concerned, serious threads for the most part I avoid because I come here to not have to think much and alos for the fact that I have a tendancy to be somewhat short tempered. I understand that many people are the opposite and come here looking for intellectual stimulation or to talk about serious issues. That's fine by me as well.

Like I said, if you want SYM to have a certain atmosphere, then work activly to create that atmosphere for yourself. But don't expect anyone else to share your view. I'd imagine that some will and some won't, so just carve your own little place out and leave everyone else to their place as they see fit.

Oh, and send the females to me for indoctrination regardless of anything I just said.