Curiosity killed the cat...

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:03 pm

Originally posted by Waverly
I’m unclear how the states set their current guidelines, though I suspect there are several factors. One good way to look at it is: should this person be considered an adult if they could not be self sufficient and support themselves if they were on their own? Below the age of 16 or so, I’d imagine the answer is nearly always ‘no’.

Am I making any sense? I can’t tell.

I think you make a lot of sense, and this issue also taps the question of differences between times and cultures. Just 75 years ago, public compulsory school was only 6 years in Sweden. When the kids had graduated, they were supposed to get a job and move away from home since most people were rather poor it was better the sooner the kids left home.

Now, compulsory school is 9 years, and over 90% of Swedish youths go to the next level, which is another 3-4 years. That means they leave home and start to support themselves around age 20, unless you have parents who are weathly enough to pay for your housing.

The point where a person is self sufficient and supports themselves, is IMO a crucial factor in adulthood. It makes a pivotal difference.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:15 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
Grr, I wrote a long post earlier today that disappeared the moment I sent it because my browser crash. I try again:

As several others have pointed out, it's very important to note that different areas mature with different speed in almost all teenagers – this is normal, and it is depending on both genetic, biological and sociocultural factors.

Physical maturity is regulated both by our genes and by environmental factors such as diet, climate and hard exercise. Some studies suggest that sociocultural factors also play a role, but this is yet uncertain. Girls mature faster than boys in the Western society, on average girls are 2 years ahead. North Europeans are the slowest to reach puberty, it's believed to be due to the cold climate. The interindividual variability is large, some people look like adults when they are 12, others not until they are 20.

Cognitive, or intellectual maturity, also differs widely between young individuals. Small children think in a concrete way, as we get older we develop abstract thinking and reasoning, and we learn lots of things that we can use to predict and understand situations. Cognitive functions is also an important prerequisite for our moral values and life philosophy – if you ask a 5 year old why you shouldn’t steal something from another person, most say something like "it’s wrong" or "it’s mean". If you ask a 12-year old, you usually hear a reasoning, based on principles.

Emotional and social development is perhaps what differs the most between individuals, since this relies heavily upon learning and experience. What's problematic when we are young, is that our identity and integrity is not stable and strong yet, and that makes us easy prey for abuse or exploitation from adults. Teenagers are usually more sensitive to peer pressure and pressure from people they admire or look up to, so it's difficult to assure that a very young person is doing something because he or she really wants it, not because somebody else has affected them to want it. Self-knowledge, understanding of other people and understanding in social relationship are crucial for all of us.

These three areas sometimes develop together, but more often than not, different areas develop with different speed. It's not all unusual to see a teenager with the body of an adult and the mind of a child. The other way around can also happen – my little 2nd cousin for instance is 13 and she looks like a little girl, but she has the reasoning, the social abilities and the responsibilites of an adult. She is certainly mature enough to take care of a child, although I of course think she should go to school and develop herself as an individual instead!

I think we all agree that the boundary between childhood and adulthood should never be crossed in romantic or sexual relationships. The difficult area is the transition between the two, the adolescence, when one is neither a child or an adult – or both. As a rule, I don't think and 18-year old and a 12-year old should not have a romantic relationship, instead, stay friends – a close friendship contains lots of love, appreciating, emotional intimacy etc. Of course there are exceptions, but it takes a long time to make sure that this particular 12-year old is such an exception, so you need to develop a close friendship anyway to be able to assess this. The degree of physical maturity is of course visible, but to assess the other two areas and also, how well integrated they are, one needs to know a person very well. How independent a person is, how emotionally stable, how able to cope with difficulties and how deep self-knowledge a person has, are fundamental but complicated areas to assess.

When both people are adult, I think age differences of 10-15 years are of minor importance. It's important when we are young, and it might become important again as we get old, since a large age difference might leave one person alone early. I used to have a friend whose father was 22 years older than her mother, and he never got to see his grandchildren and her mother was made a widow only 50 years old.
With teenagers, it's different because we develop and change much faster as teens than as adults, time is sort of concentrated, most people change much more between 13-15 than between 33-35. That's why the same number of years must be judged differently in teenage relationships than in adult relationships.

I like what you've said, CE, and I agree with most of it, I think.

When my parents got married, people thought my dad was too old for my mom. He was 30 and she was 19. But they had become friends long before they had any idea there were any romantic feelings involved. In fact, my dad got engaged to my mom's college roommate 2 or 3 times before ever dated my mom.

I strongly agree with the be friends thing. In fact, I don't want to get very involved romantically with anyone until I've become good friends with them. With a strong enough friendship, even a failed romance won't break the bond(this i know from experience).

Another aspect of the age difference thing, and this applies as much outside of romantic relationships as inside, is the relativity of time.

To someone who has only been alive for 18 years, a decade is more than half their life. For someone who's been alive for 50 years, a decade is only one fifth of their life. Thus, the difference in age betwee a 50 year old and a 40 year old is only one fifth the 50 year old's life. While the difference between an 18-year-old and an 8-year-old is more just over half of the 18-year-old's life.

The viewpoints of this is that to a 50 year old, 10 years doesn't seem like much time, at least, not as much time as 10 years seems to an 18-year-old.

Like Waverly, I have no idea if I'm making any sense.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:25 pm

SS:
And as for making friends at college...well, I've made a several friends over the past couple of semesters, but we only see each other when we happen to bump into each other walking to classes, and I'm too shy to make any closer friends than that at college.

I know shyness is difficult to overcome, but it's a very short trip from here to arranging to meet outside of classes. I'm sure it will happen.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:47 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

The viewpoints of this is that to a 50 year old, 10 years doesn't seem like much time, at least, not as much time as 10 years seems to an 18-year-old.

Like Waverly, I have no idea if I'm making any sense.

You make perfect sense to me, and your description is how I personally have experienced time. When I was 18, thinking 3 years back was like thinking of another world, I had changed so much both as a person and in life-style. Thinking 5 years ahead was almost impossible, 10 years ahead - unthinkable. Now, I'm 31 and thinking back 3 years I don't think I've changed much as a person, even if my life situation has changed a little bit. Thinking 5 years ahead doesn't feel so strange, I don't even feel alienated when I try to imagine myself 10 years ahead.

Regarding your personal development, I think it's good that you have decided to focus more on emotional/social development since life is certainly easier the more integrated and congruent our development is in different areas. It's often difficult to have a great imbalance between areas, especially in interaction with other people. Having friends in different ages is important, I think, but it sounds like most of your friends are younger, and I think you would benefit and develop from also having friends your own age, and older. For emotional development, it's very important to have friends ones own age, and collage is a wonderful opportunity to meet people your own age. Shyness is difficult and often painful, but like Waverly says, the step to suggest a meeting outside school is very short if you have already made an initial contact with some people you find likable and interesting.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:30 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans

You make perfect sense to me, and your description is how I personally have experienced time. When I was 18, thinking 3 years back was like thinking of another world, I had changed so much both as a person and in life-style. Thinking 5 years ahead was almost impossible, 10 years ahead - unthinkable. Now, I'm 31 and thinking back 3 years I don't think I've changed much as a person, even if my life situation has changed a little bit. Thinking 5 years ahead doesn't feel so strange, I don't even feel alienated when I try to imagine myself 10 years ahead.

*grins, happy that she made sense to someone as that seems to happen too rarely*

Regarding your personal development, I think it's good that you have decided to focus more on emotional/social development since life is certainly easier the more integrated and congruent our development is in different areas. It's often difficult to have a great imbalance between areas, especially in interaction with other people. Having friends in different ages is important, I think, but it sounds like most of your friends are younger, and I think you would benefit and develop from also having friends your own age, and older. For emotional development, it's very important to have friends ones own age, and collage is a wonderful opportunity to meet people your own age. Shyness is difficult and often painful, but like Waverly says, the step to suggest a meeting outside school is very short if you have already made an initial contact with some people you find likable and interesting.

The step may be a short distance away, but my shyness puts a very large gap between me and it.

I find it much easier to approach someone younger than me because I don't have the fear that they'll look down on me(and I don't mean physically, as there are 13-year-olds who are taller than me.

), but when dealing with someone my age or older, they have a tendancy to look down on me and feel even smaller and like running off to find some place to hide.

The exception seems to be on the internet where I'm able to make friends with people my age and older who don't look down on me, usually.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:37 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

The step may be a short distance away, but my shyness puts a very large gap between me and it. I find it much easier to approach someone younger than me because I don't have the fear that they'll look down on me(and I don't mean physically, as there are 13-year-olds who are taller than me. ), but when dealing with someone my age or older, they have a tendancy to look down on me and feel even smaller and like running off to find some place to hide. The exception seems to be on the internet where I'm able to make friends with people my age and older who don't look down on me, usually.

Look down on you? That sounds very strange. Have you ever noticed any pattern like when you start talking about certain things or when you behave in a certain way, you are recieved like that? What signs do you see in those people that makes you feel they look down on you? Is it something they say? The tone of their voice?

Many people feel that others look down on them even though this is not the case. Shyness, insecurity and many other things can make people behave a bit rude or aloof.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:17 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans

Look down on you? That sounds very strange. Have you ever noticed any pattern like when you start talking about certain things or when you behave in a certain way, you are recieved like that? What signs do you see in those people that makes you feel they look down on you? Is it something they say? The tone of their voice?

Many people feel that others look down on them even though this is not the case. Shyness, insecurity and many other things can make people behave a bit rude or aloof.

Well, in the past, it was mostly the because old people don't like it when little girls are smarter than them.

Nowadays, it's more of a lack of interest in what I want to talk about. There are several factors in this. Because of the past experiences with trying to have intelligent conversations with adults, I have a tendancy to remain quiet during those conversations. Thus, I now have a tendancy to talk about things like anime and Baldur's Gate. Most the time, it isn't long before the person loses complete interest and begins to ignore me, at which point I stop and we go 'bout our seperate ways. This is usually okay as I tend to be rather antisocial in that I'd rather be left alone. However, this comes from the fact that no one I talk to irl is interested in what I have to say, no matter what I'm talking about.

At other times, it's just the fact that I look so young. I'm 18, but people often think I'm in my early teens. Thus I tend to get treated like I'm younger than I am. My lack of emotional maturity certainly hasn't helped with this image either.

From 5th grade through a couple years ago, I would attend adult bible studies at the churches I attended because the youth and child bible studies and such weren't as in depth as I wanted. The adult bible studies were in depth enough, but nearly everytime I would try to say something, some adult would interrupt and speak as if I didn't even exist. My mom tried to get me to not worry about it, but...that's easier said than done.

Now, I don't attend the Bible Studies because I don't want to take a chance on that happening anymore...especially since it already happens in college.

It's hard to explain what it is that they do that makes me feel like they're looking down on me. A lot of it is lack of interest and viewing me as "still a child," but there's more to it than that.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:09 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

Thus, I now have a tendancy to talk about things like anime and Baldur's Gate. Most the time, it isn't long before the person loses complete interest and begins to ignore me, at which point I stop and we go 'bout our seperate ways.

Yes, I can see why this happens. Anime and BG are highly specific areas, you almost have to be interested in it and know a lot about it if it is to be an interesting conversation topic. Computer games are like movies, I think, there's not much to be said unless one has played the game/seen the movie oneself. Really, it's the same with all highly specific areas - if I were to start conversation with strangers about neural pathways or Sidney's sonnets, they would probably fall asleep before I finished. When we speak to people we don't know well, it's almost always better to start with discuss more general topics, about things we have in common with them.

At other times, it's just the fact that I look so young. I'm 18, but people often think I'm in my early teens. Thus I tend to get treated like I'm younger than I am. My lack of emotional maturity certainly hasn't helped with this image either.

Looking younger than ones age is often a problem, I recognise this very well. Most people think I'm much younger than I am, and sometimes that means I have to "prove myself" before the old farts in the scientific community listen to me. My husband had similar problems at his present job, many people thought he was 25 and graduated from school yesterday when in fact he is 33 and has been working for 6-7 years. One of my best friends who is an architect also had this problem, her customers often had a bad attitude towards her because she's very small and looks very young so they sort of thought "a little girl like this can't build a house".

Some people dismiss others because of age, it is sometimes supposed that a young person knows less or is less skillful because s/he is young. The problem is that the only way to get around this is to demostrate that you have something relevant to say regardless of your age, and that means you have to talk. Which I understand feels awkward since you have had some bad experiences. So it becomes a vicious circle where people who focus too much on how young you look never get the opportunity to re-evaluate you since you are shy and don't say a lot. This circle must be broken, and the only way to do this is to overcome the shyness and the uncomfortable feelings and start to talk more.

This is of course very difficult, but one way to make it easier is to start with asking people about themselves and what they think. When they reply, more question can be asked. Most people think it's nice that others show interest in them, so that way you can avoid that they will not be interested in what you have to say. Once the conversation in going, you can add more about what you think yourself.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:49 pm

CE makes an excellent point. When you are having trouble getting into a conversation whether it be a RL gathering or a thread on the boards, taking an interest in someone else and asking them questions will get their attention and break the ice.

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:59 pm

Hmmm. You pose a difficult question S.S. Now, being a lifeguard, I have substantial time to people watch while I'm scanning the pool for anything interesting. A young couple making out, is, well, not suitible for a public pool. One of the most akward things you ever have to do, is go over to a couple going at it in the hot tub and asking them to go somewhere else or stop. A few weeks back, 2 kids were going at it in the shallow end. I splashed them a bit, and to my surprise, they girl couldnt have been more than 13, and the guy was at least 16-17. It bugged me, more so than anything else I'd seen. I can't explain why, but it seemed, wrong.

My theory is that societies goal is to protect it's youth, and as a lifeguard, thats what I do. And I think the big problem is that people of different ages want different things from relationships. I'm only 17, and have no intention of having a serious relationship (unless something really unexpected happens). I have no pretenses of falling in love, I'm too young. I just don't trust my own judgement enough. Some people may be different. However, some love lorn girl whos younger than me, may think I am "it". It happens, ask any lifeguard...

I'm not making any sense here... I just got back from biking around the city for several hours in -30 C weather.
But the point I'm trying to make, poorly, is that people of different ages, especially younger people, want different things and have different expectations from a relationship, and that we should keep the younger people away from the older teens until they all develop some judgement.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 am

Originally posted by Obsidian
Hmmm. You pose a difficult question S.S. Now, being a lifeguard, I have substantial time to people watch while I'm scanning the pool for anything interesting. A young couple making out, is, well, not suitible for a public pool. One of the most akward things you ever have to do, is go over to a couple going at it in the hot tub and asking them to go somewhere else or stop. A few weeks back, 2 kids were going at it in the shallow end. I splashed them a bit, and to my surprise, they girl couldnt have been more than 13, and the guy was at least 16-17. It bugged me, more so than anything else I'd seen. I can't explain why, but it seemed, wrong.

My theory is that societies goal is to protect it's youth, and as a lifeguard, thats what I do. And I think the big problem is that people of different ages want different things from relationships. I'm only 17, and have no intention of having a serious relationship (unless something really unexpected happens). I have no pretenses of falling in love, I'm too young. I just don't trust my own judgement enough. Some people may be different. However, some love lorn girl whos younger than me, may think I am "it". It happens, ask any lifeguard...

I'm not making any sense here... I just got back from biking around the city for several hours in -30 C weather.
But the point I'm trying to make, poorly, is that people of different ages, especially younger people, want different things and have different expectations from a relationship, and that we should keep the younger people away from the older teens until they all develop some judgement.

You're making more sense than you realize, either that or I'm so high on Dr. Pepper that anything'll make sense to me.

I understand what you're saying. One thing that's been mentioned is physical relationship. I definitely agree that someone in their early teens is not old enough to be part of such a relationship. There is, to play devil's advocate a bit, a reason why getting in a romantic relationship with me would be better for someone that young than getting in a romantic relationship with someone else my age. I've made a commitment to abstain from sex until married. But, there's far more to consider in something like this than just the physical, of course.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 11:44 pm

Originally posted by Waverly
CE makes an excellent point. When you are having trouble getting into a conversation whether it be a RL gathering or a thread on the boards, taking an interest in someone else and asking them questions will get their attention and break the ice.

While I'm sure that you and CE know what ya'll are talking about(no sarcasm meant), I've tried that numerous times and it has yet to work.

prateek · Post by **prateek** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 10:56 am

Let's look at this mathematically, w/ ratios. It's another approach I suppose

You say your parents are about 40 and 50 year olds, correct? the ratios woudl then be 4:5, with the 50 year old being 25% older than the 40 year old.

Now, let's look at the 10 and 20 year old. the ratios would be 1:2, so the 20 year old would then be 100% older than (or twice) the 10 year old.

Other than that, I can't help you much on this, if I were to look at this from a different persepective, than I would just be repeating some of the posters.