Is it OK to question religion?

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 8:50 pm

@at99 - in MM, you have probably found a very good person to answer your questions

I can only speak of what I hear from religious friends: most Christians I know find church-going and other "formalised" religious behaviour much less important than the core belief that Jesus was the son of god and he died for the sake of salvating man. This core belief, together with the system of Christian values seems to be what makes you identify yourself as a Christian and make you go to heaven.

I have some Muslim friends too, both here and in Arab countries. Some of them visit mosques frequently and pray, others never go to the mosque but view the belief of god in you heart, as the important thing. There is a larger variability among the Muslim people I know than among the Christians I know, probably because the latter are mostly Western Europeans (same culture) whereas the former might be Swedish, Arab, Asian or African Muslims (thus covering many different cultures).

I actually don't know one single person who thinks going to the church/mosque and performing the rituals, is enough to go to heaven.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:34 pm

Some interseting replies.
My problem I guess is that I have had experience of other religions like buddhist and yoga. They say say along with christians that heaven is not an external place but within you.

To reach this place you need meditation and concentration using your mind (basically). Or an effort of will is needed You cant get there by thinking and talking). Could this explain why people only use less 10% of their brain and meditation enables you to use the rest and be in heaven?

Also if 'god is your heart' is good enough still does not explain the monastic life which seems to us extreme, nor does it explain yoga or buddhism. And what about the millions of non-christians who dont accept christ?

I believe it is naive to think that the scriptures have not been tampered with through time. Whats in the vatican libraries?
The church has a good habbit of censoring things (wrightly or wrongly). This does not mean I dont like christianity.

Alienbob · Post by **Alienbob** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:57 pm

Question everything. do not believe anything just because somebody told you to. your beliefs have to be your own and no one elses. im not saying you cant believe the same thing as someone else, but always find things out on your own. if you do this then no one will ever be able to take your beliefs away.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Nov 18, 2001 7:50 pm

Originally posted by at99:
Could this explain why people only use less 10% of their brain and meditation enables you to use the rest and be in heaven?

It is not true that people only use 10% of their brains, we all use all of our brain even if every single neuron is not active simultaneuosly. I have sometimes seen this "You only use 10% of your brain" in popular press (there are even books about it), but I have no idea where this erranous belief comes from - it might stem from the old days when we couldn't measure brain activity very well.

Meditation has been showed to increase people's subjective experience of well-being. People feel relaxed, refreshened an harmonic. This effect is believed to be mediated by a hormone called oxytocin. Oxytocin is released after sexual satisfaction and by smell of and physcial touch by people we love (between child and parent, between a loving couple). It reduces stress hormones and makes people feel generally relaxed and pleased. Meditation has been shown to rise the level of oxytocin.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Nov 18, 2001 8:29 pm

Originally posted by at99:
Is it OK to question religion?

This question is a controversial one with no easy answers. On one hand you can hurt peoples emotions and on the other you have some intellectual concerns.

What if you dont agree with some religous interpretations, do you be quite and let it fester or let it out and try get a resolution?

How else can you learn but to ask questions about that which you don't understand?

I don't know about other religions, but Paul(one of the authors of numerous New Testament books) taught to question everything we're told by our "religious leaders"(pastors, teachers, etc), including that which he says. Basically, if something doesn't make sense to you, talk to someone who knows a lot about the subject and try to figure out why it doesn't make sense to you.

*dances away in search of more fun topic*

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Nov 18, 2001 8:35 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans:
It is not true that people only use 10% of their brains, we all use all of our brain even if every single neuron is not active simultaneuosly. I have sometimes seen this "You only use 10% of your brain" in popular press (there are even books about it), but I have no idea where this erranous belief comes from - it might stem from the old days when we couldn't measure brain activity very well.

*though she was leaving this topic, stops to comment on this*

I thought that "You only use 10% of your brain" thing was speaking of potential. The idea that we only use 10% of our brain's potential abilities. How they measure that, I dunno; but that's what I always thought it meant.

*shrugs, smiles, and heads to another topic*

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Nov 18, 2001 8:51 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
I thought that "You only use 10% of your brain" thing was speaking of potential. The idea that we only use 10% of our brain's potential abilities. How they measure that, I dunno; but that's what I always thought it meant.

Welcome back, SS

If the 10% are referring to potential, it might be that they mean the multiple "copies" of certain functions. To simplify, the cortical area controlling motor function has several copies of "moving your right arm"-areas. So if you damage one area, another area can take over the "moving your right arm"-function. However, these multiple copies only are not a large part of the brain and they can't be used to much else since the cells are "preprogrammed" to control motor functions.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Nov 18, 2001 9:21 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans:
Welcome back, SS If the 10% are referring to potential, it might be that they mean the multiple "copies" of certain functions. To simplify, the cortical area controlling motor function has several copies of "moving your right arm"-areas. So if you damage one area, another area can take over the "moving your right arm"-function. However, these multiple copies only are not a large part of the brain and they can't be used to much else since the cells are "preprogrammed" to control motor functions.

Hiya, CE. I really dunno what they're talking about to be honest. In fact, as far as I know, the concept I got from the 10% thing is just something my brain came up with. What little understanding I have of it is it would have something to do with that beyond the 10% would be things like psychic abilities such as telepathy and telekenesis as well as other abilities no one is even capable of imagining. But then, this may just come from reading too much Sci-fi.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Sun Nov 18, 2001 10:59 pm

I have a dozen books claiming that we only use a small portion of our brains and we have the potential to do so much more.
(can give refernces if you want)

Meditation is not just about relaxing. Read some books on meditation for a deeper meaning here. Try telling some Yogis who can by the way control there bodies in all sorts of ways (eg stopping heart) that meditation is just about relaxing.

If meditation can help these eastern monks perform amazing feats of mind-over matter we should not just whisk it away without questioning why we cant do it with our religion. We have a religous knowledge problem!!

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 8:18 am

Originally posted by at99:
Meditation is not just about relaxing. Read some books on meditation for a deeper meaning here. Try telling some Yogis who can by the way control there bodies in all sorts of ways (eg stopping heart) that meditation is just about relaxing.

Things such as stopping your heart through meditation---is this actually possible?---are still a matter of relaxing to the point that the aforementioned event happens. A lot of people nowadays who do meditation do it for relaxation. As far as meditation for religious purposes, different religions have different methods(i.e., Christians pray, some "more devout" Christians fast and pray).

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 8:57 am

Originally posted by at99:
Meditation is not just about relaxing. Read some books on meditation for a deeper meaning here. Try telling some Yogis who can by the way control there bodies in all sorts of ways (eg stopping heart) that meditation is just about relaxing.

If I understand her correctly, CE isn't discussing above what meditation is, but rather the physiological effect it has, when she writes:

Meditation has been showed to increase people's subjective experience of well-being. People feel relaxed, refreshened an harmonic.

I don't see this really as an attack on your position.

I would also agree with @SS that various religious cultures employ different techniques to achieve a variety of effects. Those you've mentioned above are actually byproducts of yogic techniques, rather than (usually) the actual aim, which is a kind of transcendence. This same transcendence of the material into a self-perceived, unmeasurable greater spiritual reality has been achieved in Christianity, Judaism and Islam through quietic prayer and contemplative mysticism.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 5:10 pm

Originally posted by fable:
If I understand her correctly, CE isn't discussing above what meditation is, but rather the physiological effect it has, when she writes:

Meditation has been showed to increase people's subjective experience of well-being. People feel relaxed, refreshened an harmonic.

I don't see this really as an attack on your position.

I would also agree with @SS that various religious cultures employ different techniques to achieve a variety of effects. Those you've mentioned above are actually byproducts of yogic techniques, rather than (usually) the actual aim, which is a kind of transcendence. This same transcendence of the material into a self-perceived, unmeasurable greater spiritual reality has been achieved in Christianity, Judaism and Islam through quietic prayer and contemplative mysticism.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

I am getting the the point where what is spiritually good enough. Having read eastern philosphies you find people having a different view of things to christainity.

Eastern religions seem to be able to do more. That is not an ideal but it goes to show poeple should look at other religions and ask why and how. This enables your faith to get stronger.

Saying 'all you need to do is belive in christ' is too vague.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 5:35 pm

Originally posted by at99:
Saying 'all you need to do is belive in christ' is too vague.

Not really. Belief that Christ died on the cross, paying the price for our sins, and that he rose from the dead three days later is the foundation of Christianity. It is the cornerstone to Christian belief. That is not all there is to being a Christian, though. Sure, you can become a Christian and never do anything that remotely resembles things a Christian would do, but many would question your commitment. Generally, the more committed you are, the more you do for God.

*quickly exits the topic before she can get cornered by fable*

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 7:41 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
Not really. Belief that Christ died on the cross, paying the price for our sins, and that he rose from the dead three days later is the foundation of Christianity. It is the cornerstone to Christian belief. That is not all there is to being a Christian, though. Sure, you can become a Christian and never do anything that remotely resembles things a Christian would do, but many would question your commitment. Generally, the more committed you are, the more you do for God.

*quickly exits the topic before she can get cornered by fable*

This belief is again quite vague in the whole religious question. I dont think this belief will suddenly make everything OK.
Please re-read my thread on this. Other religions dont agree with each other and my point is that you cant all be equally correct.

Christians need to be better eduacted on other religions I think.(my opinion)

It is not a black and white issue of my religion works and your does not. I think there are shades of grey.

Like a 100M race, everybody can do it but not everbody gets there fast.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 8:31 pm

Originally posted by at99:
This belief is again quite vague in the whole religious question. I dont think this belief will suddenly make everything OK.
Please re-read my thread on this. Other religions dont agree with each other and my point is that you cant all be equally correct.

Christians need to be better eduacted on other religions I think.(my opinion)

It is not a black and white issue of my religion works and your does not. I think there are shades of grey.

Like a 100M race, everybody can do it but not everbody gets there fast.

RE: Meditation - from what I understand of Eastern meditation practices, the purpose of meditating is to clear one's mind of everything which might distract from achieving ultimate reality. When Christians meditate, however, their purpose for doing so is NOT to focus on nothing, but rather to contemplate the meaning of the words of God, as found in the Scriptures. In Psalm 119, the psalmist repeatedly states "I meditate on your (Jehovah's) words."

I agree that Christians need to know more about other religions. I also believe, however, that non-Christians need to be better educated about Christians who actually take their faith seriously.

RE: "Other religions don't agree with each other." Of course other religions don't agree with each other! Nothing in the world
agrees with each other! What great idea has ever been accepted unconditionally by every human being who has heard it? What organized system of [fill in the blank here]has ever gone unchallenged by its opposing view? None! And religion is no exception to the rule.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 9:24 pm

Originally posted by at99:
This belief is again quite vague in the whole religious question. I dont think this belief will suddenly make everything OK.
Please re-read my thread on this.

It's not as vague as it seems, but it doesn't make everything visibly "OK." What it does do when you've made a true commitment and accepted Christ as your Savior is make everything bearable. You could argue against this by pointing out Christians who have committed suicide, but in response to such arguements, I have two questions. 1.)Was that person really a Christian or did they just say they were Christians without having made a true commitment? 2.)Were they letting God help them with their problems? We sometimes get so bogged down by our problems that we can't see the big picture. I know beyond any shadow of doubt that if I didn't have Christ to guide me, I'd have committed suicide several years ago.

Other religions dont agree with each other and my point is that you cant all be equally correct.

True. Though this may seem offensive to people of other religions(and those of "no religion"), it is what I and most(but not all) Christians believe. There is only one way and that way is Jesus Christ.

Christians need to be better eduacted on other religions I think.(my opinion)

I agree here. How can one argue against something if you don't know what you're arguing against? Also, knowing what other religions believe helps to strengthen your own beliefs.

It is not a black and white issue of my religion works and your does not. I think there are shades of grey.

Like a 100M race, everybody can do it but not everbody gets there fast.

Again, this may be offensive to non-Christians, but it is what I believe. I am not being intolerant of other beliefs. I condemn no one for disagreeing with me on this subject. Everyone has a decision to make. You make your own, whether I think it is the right decision or not.

I disagree here, as do most Christians. Jesus himself said "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father but through me."

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:38 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
I disagree here, as do most Christians. Jesus himself said "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father but through me."

I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father but through me. The 'I' and 'me' is open to intpretation and the eastern interprtation is that the 'I' and 'me' means the self. (Not christ himself but through each person individually.)
Who's got it right?

The bible was written in a form of Latin which was never officially recognised. The translation from Latin to English is for some part 'up for grabs' and parts written 300 years after it all happened.

With all respect I dont think your reading my posts entirely. There a mass difference in what relgious action that should be taken.

Thats the magic word 'ACTION'. Not beliefs.

I dont think I will continue much with this . I can only see tempers being flared on a subject that is not well debated or Understood. Even though people claim it is. I have not found people to like differing opinions to them without over reacting.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 11:21 pm

Originally posted by at99:
I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father but through me. The 'I' and 'me' is open to intpretation and the eastern interprtation is that the 'I' and 'me' means the self. (Not christ himself but through each person individually.)
Who's got it right?

Eastern interpretation? Got any references for this?

The bible was written in a form of Latin which was never officially recognised. The translation from Latin to English is for some part 'up for grabs' and parts written 300 years after it all happened.

It is time for you to get your facts straight instead of telling everyone else to do so. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. The texts translated in the present time are translated from the oldest known manuscripts, some of which are the original manuscripts.

With all respect I dont think your reading my posts entirely. There a mass difference in what relgious action that should be taken.

I'm reading your posts entirely. I, however, am only able to comment on what Christians believe and that is what I'm doing. As I have said, I am uncertain as to other religions' views on many of these things. If someone else wishes to comment on other religions' views, they are welcome to do so.

Thats the magic word 'ACTION'. Not beliefs.

Action is part of belief. "Faith without action is dead." If you believe a bridge will hold your weight but never step out onto the bridge, then your belief is pointless.

I dont think I will continue much with this . I can only see tempers being flared on a subject that is not well debated or Understood. Even though people claim it is. I have not found people to like differing opinions to them without over reacting.

Who's tempers are flaring? Is it yours by any chance? *looks around* I don't see anyone's temper flaring. You think my temper is flaring? You're wrong there if that's what you think. Who's overreacting? *looks around* I don't see anyone overreacting except maybe for you. As you can see, all I've done is state fact.(the beliefs being factual statements of what I and most Christians believe). Why is it that whenever people are cornered on a topic they try to run?

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 11:29 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
Who's tempers are flaring? Is it yours by any chance? *looks around* I don't see anyone's temper flaring. You think my temper is flaring? You're wrong there if that's what you think. Who's overreacting? *looks around* I don't see anyone overreacting except maybe for you. As you can see, all I've done is state fact.(the beliefs being factual statements of what I and most Christians believe). Why is it that whenever people are cornered on a topic they try to run?

I think your a nice young person. I think I see a bit of a gap here in age and experience.

Keep studying hard now!!

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 11:36 pm

Originally posted by at99:

I think your a nice young person. I think I see a bit of a gap here in age and experience.

Keep studying hard now!!

I asked this in the other topic, but I'm going to ask it again here. Please explain what you mean by the "age gap."