World Problems

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jun 15, 2001 3:25 am

Originally posted by Garcia:
soon we will have to pay more than 100%

"that will be $3000 in tax this month"
"but...but´...I only make $2000 a month"
"don't give me that old story I heard it a million times we are running a socialistic solidaric community here and you should pay with a smile!"

Even though I can smile now - it is not unrealistic

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Fri Jun 15, 2001 5:17 am

To those who believe abortion is acceptable in rape cases: I'd like to know why? I'm honestly not trying to be difficult or sarcastic, I just really don't understand the justification. As I wrote in an earlier post, that would be like punishing the victim for someone else's crime. Same thing goes for incest, IMO. It's not the child's fault, why should he/she be deprived of existence because some maniac perpetrated an evil?...

I'm sure some would argue that it isn't the woman's fault either (which is absolutely true), and that she shouldn't be required to bear a burden she never asked for. *sigh* Unfortunately, so often people separate the abortion issue into caring for the mother as opposed to caring for the child. Why does there have to be such a split? Can't we care for and love them both??...

My general view is, that a fetus, in whatever stage of development, is a potential human being with a destiny to live a human life. I don't believe it's our right to eliminate that potential or cut off that destiny.

*dons Mantle of Flame Resistance +5*

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Jun 15, 2001 5:46 am

1: abortion

Can not agree in principle with this apart from the issues which Kid raised

2: environmental policy

We are way past sorting this problem IMO

3: euthinasia

I agree in principle with the idea of stopping suffering

4: government spending

Give it al lto me...

and stop spending it on stupid domes which are only up for a year

My Rant:

I am particularly annoied recently by hollywood & TV and it's obsession with making out that homosexuality is the norm and in fact should be glorified.

i have no actual problem with a homosexuals it is just having the idea of it forced upon you can be annoying.

Also more ranting:

I hate the inference that we (youngsters) should all indulge in 'club culture' spending hours of our weekends getting drunk and talking crap, am i the only person who prefers a stimulating conversation?

[ 06-15-2001: Message edited by: Mr Sleep ]

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:08 am

I'm not gonna touch this one with a 20 foot barge pole!

I've too many views and not enough windows in which to force them out through

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:53 am

Originally posted by loner72:
<snip> Unfortunately, so often people separate the abortion issue into caring for the mother as opposed to caring for the child. Why does there have to be such a split? Can't we care for and love them both??...
<snip>

Of course you can - but generally it is the parents that should take care of the child and not society, therefor if you don't care for the mother, she can't care for the child, and possible other children.

I would not say that abortion when rape is not caring for the child or punishing it - I would say that this is the oppersite, instead of possible making a child go through a awfull childhood and thereby possible making a "bad" adult, you are sparreing the child suffering. The idea that all people are loved and cared for is still utopic.

Futhermore, it has much to do with when we define this embryo as a human being - I think this is the case of most dissagrement between pro-choice and against abortion

(IMO)

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Fri Jun 15, 2001 8:24 am

@Xandax: Thanks for responding...

1. Re sparing a child/person from suffering: Okay, this is probably going to sound like I'm some kind of sadistic evil Nazi, BUT: sparing a person from suffering is no reason to deprive them of life. Everyone suffers, some to a greater extent than others. If you follow that logic through, what's to stop us from just killing people who are in suffering, so the suffering stops? That can also be used as a justification for suicide. Child abuse/neglect, etc. is evil. But I think we need to find better solutions to prevent such evil, than preventing the life.

In addition: people who are going to abuse their children are not going to think this way. They are not going to say "Oh, I'm going to mistreat my child, so I should prevent its suffering." These people don't care if they CAUSE suffering. Therefore, if it's their choice, they're not going to have the child aborted. You'd have to have parent police going around forcing potential abusers to terminate their pregnancies. A completely loving society might be utopic, as you say; but this is unrealistic as well.

Also, it does not necessarily follow that an unwanted child is going to be abused. I know lots of examples of unwanted pregnancies where the parents loved and cared for the child; and other examples of planned pregnancies where the child is neglected in many ways.

2. Re the point in time at which the embryo is considered a person: I don't think that matters at all. It's supposed to end up being a person. The idea is that it's going to be a person at some point. In my post I mentioned potential and destiny, two very key words. Tied in with the theme of suffering: even if it was known and guaranteed that the child would suffer for a time (or as an adult), the potential for ceasing the suffering at some point, and making a positive contribution to the world, is always there.

3. Re the idea that abortion is caring for the mother: There have to be other ways. I will never believe that there are no other ways. They may be difficult and require thought and hard work, but it can be done. Perhaps in such cases society SHOULD step in to help, instead of leaving everything up to inept/not ready/abusive parents. We never hear of the negative after-effects of abortion in a woman's life -- and now I'm not talking physical, but emotional/mental. That is something she has to live with for the rest of her life. How well does she really deal with it?

There are serious problems associated with suffering children in this world. I just don't think death is the answer that will solve them.

Please understand this is not an attack; I'm just trying to put some good pro-life arguments out there for everyone to consider, since we unfortunately don't hear too many of them. Most pro-life arguments involve strictly religious POV's, emotional guilt trips, disgusting photographs, or violence. I wish someone would get on the public scene and make some good, logical arguments...

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jun 15, 2001 8:34 am

Originally posted by loner72:
<snip>
Please understand this is not an attack; I'm just trying to put some good pro-life arguments out there for everyone to consider, since we unfortunately don't hear too many of them <snip>

Oh darn - I almost got mad

Don't worry, I've never taken other peoples oppinions as an attack on mine (to some peoples regret

)

I respect your views, but I don't agree with then.

Child abuse/neglect, etc. is evil. But I think we need to find better solutions to prevent such evil, than preventing the life.

Of course we do - but we don't live in a great world where everybody cares for each other. It is a dog-eat-dog world where evil happens dayly, and instead of putting more unwanted children into this world I would still belive it is more humane this way.
I mean we put pets to sleep when they are in pain and can't be cured.....

Oh, I'm going to mistreat my child, so I should prevent its suffering." These people don't care if they CAUSE suffering

Maybe not during the act itself - but a lot of these people after they have abused their child, know that they have done wrong - but properly will still do it again.

Also, it does not necessarily follow that an unwanted child is going to be abused. I know lots of examples of unwanted pregnancies where the parents loved and cared for the child; and other examples of planned pregnancies where the child is neglected in many ways.

Of course - that was why I said "possible" a couple of times. I know that much of what I'm saying is extreme cases, but they are still cases that happen often.

Re the point in time at which the embryo is considered a person: I don't think that matters at all. It's supposed to end up being a person

I don't agree, but again - I have a more cynical view on human beings. I belive strongly that what defines a human being is the ability to be aware of yourself and surrondings (to rise above instincts), and even if I'm not a doctor or something, I do know that the embryo is not aware for the first couple of weeks. (yes - I'm cynical).

Also following your line of thinking - if a mother does something she knows could possible hurt her embryo - then she could be punished for it by law. If for instance a drug addict continues to use drug while pregnant and thereby causes an abortion - she has actually commited muder?

Re the idea that abortion is caring for the mother: There have to be other ways. I will never believe that there are no other ways

I would hope that someday we live in a world where everybody lives in harmony, but unfortunally I don't belive it - humans are selfdestructive an mass. And I would rather care for existing people than for possible people.

(IMO)

(I know that a lot of what I've said above will offend a lot of people - but though luck)

[ 06-15-2001: Message edited by: Xandax ]

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Jun 15, 2001 5:39 pm

Originally posted by loner72:
To those who believe abortion is acceptable in rape cases: I'd like to know why?

Loner, as I have stated above I'm generally pro free abortion, but I'll try to explain here why I think a women who has been raped should have the right to choose abortion.

1. Everybody, man, women and children, experince a severe trauma when raped. If a women gets pregnant by a rapist, it's not the same thing as being pregnant with someone you love, or just by your own more or less stupid mistakes. Remember, the child she carries will have 50% of it's genes from the rapist, and it's also the result of perhaps the worst thing that ever happened in that womans life, so I believe it's very difficult for a raped woman to view the child as entirely separate from the horrible event that caused the pregnancy. Many women find it diffucult or impossible to love a child they've got from being raped.

2. The woman might be very young, she might have a difficult socioeconomical situation, or she might be involved a relationship with someone she wants to have a child with. It's not a stroll in the park to go through pregnancy, childbirth and then the many years of care and responsibility if you never wanted a child in the first place.

3. I think it's wrong to consciously, in beforehand, bereave the child of a father. I do not expect that a raped woman would try to get the rapist to take fatherly responsibilities, nor that he would want to. And what about the child? How would you feel towards your father if you knew he raped your mother and that's how you came to be? No, most probably it would be a fatherless child.

So, I definitely think a women should make the choice herself, and I'm very happy I'm living in a country with free abortion.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Jun 15, 2001 5:57 pm

Originally posted by loner72:
My general view is, that a fetus, in whatever stage of development, is a potential human being with a destiny to live a human life. I don't believe it's our right to eliminate that potential or cut off that destiny.

I agree with you that a human embryo is a potential human life. I suppose one the main issues that divide pro lifers and pro choicers are to what extent this potential human life should be viewed as an individual with certain rights. MPO is that if there is a conflict between the parent's rights and the embryo's rights, the parents rights are stronger since the embryo is a not person, and it is totally dependant on the mothers's body. Also, I think every child should have the right to be welcome and loved, even though I know this is not always the case, I think we should strive for it.

Being a neuroscientist I could go into lengthy and detailed descriptions about the development of an embryo to explain why I do not view a 10 week embryo as a person more than I view cloned human tissue as a person, but I think you get my point anyway, even though I know you do not agree. I just want to try to explain my views best I can.

cheesemage · Post by **cheesemage** » Fri Jun 15, 2001 6:18 pm

ill go for misc, hamsters need to have permits before they are parked , now theres a law

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 4:17 pm

Whooo, boy, now you've done it. You've got me started on this whole abortion thing. I should just walk away from it, but I ain't gonna...

I'm so pro-choice, it's not even funny. Abortion is a very, very touchy issue, with so many variables and tangents that it's extremely difficult to come to an educated decision. I can't even begin to touch on all of the possible arguments, but I'll try to expound on my own perspective of a few of them:

Probably the aspect that is most important to me is the feminist one. No one has the right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her own body. A fetus may have the potential for life, but it's still a part of a woman. It relies on her to survive, it eats what she eats, and it puts her body through drastic physical and emotional changes. Pro-life advocates strike me as being self-appointed moralists trying to control women's reproductive rights, and that just irritates me. If abortion and pregnancy was a male issue, there would be absolutely no question whatsoever as to its legality, and especially its morality. The fact is, men can sleep around to their heart's delight, and they're considered swinging bachelors. Women who even have sexual thoughts are considered promiscuous. It isn't fair to dump all of the responsibility on women, when men can simply walk away with virtually no consequences. Now I'm sure someone will tell me that that isn't true, that there's this thing called child support; well, my dad never paid it. My mother prosecuted him, and the court even decided that he had to pay child support. He was self-employed, though, and all he had to do to get out of paying up was claim that he didn't have the money. There wasn't a thing anyone could do about it. You might say that my own personal experience makes my opinion biased; well, everyone's opinion is biased. There's no such thing as objectivity.
Abortion exists, and it's here to stay. No matter how immoral you may think it is, you can't uninvent it. And regardless of its legality, abortion will continue. Making abortion illegal will only lower the standards by which it's done, and therefore put more and more women at risk. If you truly believe in the right to life of a fetus, I certainly hope you care equally as much for the life of its mother.
Bringing a child into this world is a big responsibility, and the real crime would be giving life to something that nobody wants.
Adoption. Is this the magical answer to the problem of abortion? Personally, I don't think so. If a woman is pregnant, she doesn't want the baby, and decides on her own to give it up for adoption rather than get an abortion, good for her. It's good because she's making a choice, not having a choice made for her. People, both male and female, that have choices made for them resent it, and a mother forced to give her child up for adoption because she can't get an abortion and can't support it herself isn't very likely to take good care of herself. Will she diet properly? Will she quit smoking? Drinking? Using? Will she restrain herself from strenuous physical activity for the sake of a baby that she doesn't want, but is being forced to give birth to? Frankly, I wouldn't.
As cold as it sounds, I do not consider a fetus, regardless of its age, to be a separate living being that deserves separate legal rights. A fetus is not a baby, and it doesn't become a baby until a woman gives birth. When the doctor severs that umbilical cord and slaps it on the ass, then it's a baby.

[/end rant]

[ 06-16-2001: Message edited by: TheHellion ]

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 4:31 pm

@TheHellion *thunderous applause*

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 5:09 pm

Ok here i go. Being a liberal i let people have the choice rather than any idiot in the capital of the country.

1: abortion: I support it because if somebodies raped or is having a baby when they don't want it, then they can kill. I agree with the Hellion that a fetus is not a living being. The person should have the choice. (Thats democracy, to all republicans)

2: environmental policy: I agree that protecting the enviorment is very important. I support the Koyoto Protocol. Global Warming is a big concern, but I hate these freaking enviormentalists protestin over everything that happens. A few months ago, outside Seattle, in a Ntive American fishing ground, an enviormentalists tried to prevent the Native Americans from doing hteir annual whale hunt. In this whale hunt one whale is killed, but this woman couldn't stand too have that happen. Its their culture. We took away their country, atleast let them do something. Also i'm really annoyed at these bastards called ELF. I hate enviormetalists, but I do support doing something to cut down on destruction.

3: euthinasia: It should be legal. In a democracy people have the rights and choices, and this is one of them.Forcing them to live through a dreadful disease is "a fate worse than death" for some people.

4: government spending
They can spend on what they want as long as its not on some **** such as missile defense.

Death Penalty: I don't support it, because first it may kill the innocent (like it has a number of times) and it allows the killer to get away with whatever they did. Life in prison is alot worse. Imagine spending your whole life in a cell. Alot worse that death.

5: misc: I AM GOD

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 5:38 pm

How do enviormentalists get to their protests? In a car or do they walk. Shouldn't they live in a cave in a forest without fire, and meat because it destroys the enviorment.

The Outsider · Post by **The Outsider** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 6:30 pm

Environmentalists are not necessarily fundamentalists. There's a chance that the people that attend these protests etc. are actually concerned with responsible use of resources, rather than insisting on their abdication.

---

On the abortion etc. front- this reminds me of an essay I wrote a few years ago (an imitation of Jonathon Swift's "A Modest Proposal" (read the original before you flame me)), where I argued in favor of unilateral sterilization at birth. Parenting was then a function of meeting bureaucratic standards...

Anyhoo, how do the pro-lifers* feel about sterilization? Let's start with vasectomies. They're perfect for the 'swinging bachelor' / 'itching jockstrap' type of person. Essentially, the guy in question has admitted that he is after casual sex, not fatherhood, and has taken some steps to see that this remains the case. Is this murder? Personally, I'd say 'no'.

* The terms in this debate are amusing. You have "pro-life", which inimates that their opponents are "anti-life", and "pro-choice", which intimates that their opponents are "anti-choice". Clever & manipulative.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 7:21 pm

Outsider, I agree with you that the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are suggestive and manipulative. In Sweden, the issue is not debated a lot since very few people are against free abortion, but when is, the terms "against abortion" and "for abortion" is used. I prefer the Swedish terminology here since it's more to the point.

leedogg · Post by **leedogg** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 9:33 am

weasel i told this one was gonna heat up

ok, i'm going out on a limb here, but i have been through the abortion thing, as i said people who chose to do this were well informed and still made the choice. should we take that right from the mother(cuz IMO it's ultimately up to the mother). i don't think so, but as i said the regret is there. this is also why i said there is a definate time frame. you have 12 weeks here, i think thats too long. to me prospective life is not life. period. when the fetus has developed to the point where it could possibly live outside the mothers body, it a human being and should not be able to be aborted.

sidenote- how can someone be against abortion but support euthanasia? isn't that a double standard?

i hope this doesn't offend anyone, but if it does, grow up.

about the Gov Spending who gets taxed the most? they take @31% of my check(but i always get a refund

)

and as far as rants:WHY IS IT THAT THE RICH PEOPLE GET A CUT RATE! THIS REALLY PISSES ME OFF! I SUPPORT A FLAT TAX. IF I HAVE TO PAY 30%, EVERYONE SHOULD PAY 30%!

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 9:41 am

Originally posted by leedogg:
<snip>

about the Gov Spending who gets taxed the most? they take @31% of my check(but i always get a refund )

and as far as rants:WHY IS IT THAT THE RICH PEOPLE GET A CUT RATE! THIS REALLY PISSES ME OFF! I SUPPORT A FLAT TAX. IF I HAVE TO PAY 30%, EVERYONE SHOULD PAY 30%!

30% ????

- I wanna pay 30%.

Actually a flat rate is IMO a very good tax-form because it gives incentive to work because the more you earn, the less you'll pay in taxes as with progressive taxes.

(Unfortunally a lot of people find this unfair

they'd rather that the more you earn, the higher percent you must pay ?????)

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 4:53 pm

Originally posted by leedogg:
ok, i'm going out on a limb here, but i have been through the abortion thing, as i said people who chose to do this were well informed and still made the choice. should we take that right from the mother(cuz IMO it's ultimately up to the mother). i don't think so, but as i said the regret is there. this is also why i said there is a definate time frame. you have 12 weeks here, i think thats too long. to me prospective life is not life. period. when the fetus has developed to the point where it could possibly live outside the mothers body, it a human being and should not be able to be aborted.

A fetus can't live outside the mother's body until it's born; plain and simple. There is a great deal of regret and sorrow surrounding most abortions, but does that mean it's up to the government to save women from themselves? The whole notion is ridiculous, and goes against everything that this supposed democracy we live in stands for.

It's 2001, for Christ's sake, and we still don't have the ERA for women. That's sad enough, and now this whole abortion issue is serving to further undermine women. It's just another trump card.

Mr Snow · Post by **Mr Snow** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 9:30 pm

1)Abortion: I'm Pro Choice, no-one has the right to tell a person what to do with themselves, relating to themselves. IMO an unborn child is not life, and using it as a tool for political purposes is very sad.

2) Environment: As said numerous times above, I think everyone is pro-environment, but in todays society humans come first and everything else second. I know that will upset some people but that's the way it is. Where to you think the materials to make the computer your typing on, cloths your wearing, food you eat come from?? Environmental Activists who drive cars (even if they're combi etc), wear cloths, wipe their butt with toilet paper etc are using a product of environmental rape and pillage. In effect they are condoning the exploitation of materials to satisfy modern society but buying those same items themselves. Tot use an analagy would be some one who buys from a slave trader, In effect you are condoning the trade, otherwise you would avoid that product.

3) Euthinasia: Again Pro-lifers are hypocrites, If they were to go through some of the things some people go through (pain etc) they would not be up on their saopbox. I know I would rather be dead than a vegetable or even in a coma, wasting away from a desease etc.

4) Governments: There is a saying: You can please some of the people some of the time but you cannot please all the people all the time. No governments great, but unlike us here with our opinions, they have both sides complaining and both sides who can act and cause a public fuss, if they don't get there way. Now you can't please both side, so what happens in the real world is everyone feels shotchanged - and complains about it.

5) MOI: I try to live my life, not complain about it. I live in a developed society and have lots of freedoms that elsewhere I would not have, nor have the choice to do anything about it, so I'll kick the soapbox out from under my feet and once again hide amongst the masses.

[ 06-17-2001: Message edited by: Mr Snow ]