Massacre in Virginia: 33 students dead

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:21 pm

@Gilliatt: Discussing gun control, I think, is appropriate to the topic since that issue comes to the forefront when considering the horrible tragedy that happened on the Virginia Tech campus. What fable is referring to is something else entirely, I do believe.

With that stated, I'm thinking the whole gun control discussion is over at this point. Nothing more to be said, really.

Gilliatt · Post by **Gilliatt** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:34 pm

Chanak wrote:@Gilliatt: Discussing gun control, I think, is appropriate to the topic since that issue comes to the forefront when considering the horrible tragedy that happened on the Virginia Tech campus. What fable is referring to is something else entirely, I do believe.

With that stated, I'm thinking the whole gun control discussion is over at this point. Nothing more to be said, really.

Although I don't consider what you or I have written outrageous, I feel it would have been more appropriate to keep this thread to some kind of mourning and start a new thread about gun control. This is just my humble opinion though.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:41 pm

I was referring to a group of posts which discussed individual members' preferences among guns.

I have no problem in seeing this discussion encompassing the subject of guns, in so far as that relates to the terrible events of Virginia Tech, and similar massacres. I think such discussion could yield interesting insights from a variety of perspectives. If you don't wish to contribute further, I'll understand, but I have no problem with anything you've posted.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:12 pm

School shooting always triggers a national debate about gun control.
I don't mind if people do that in my thread also. Just please stay cool, calm and collected. Thanks everyone, the discussion is interesting IMO.

Special thanks to CE for her excellent (as usual) input.

Gilliatt · Post by **Gilliatt** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:40 pm

@ Chanak, Fable and LD, thank you for your kind words. It helped me get rid of the shame and the guilt I felt when I first red Fable's intervention. Of course those guilt and shame where not of the strongest kind, don't see me as a monk flagellating myself, but they were showing their little unconmfortable presence.

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:27 am

Sorry for talking myself away from the original post.

I do hope that there will be ways to stop massacres, but I don't see any imidiate solution. Making it harder to buy guns will just increase the sale of illegal fire arms.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:40 am

What do these school massacres have in common?

What are contributing factors to these massacres?

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:50 am

fable wrote:What do these school massacres have in common?

What are contributing factors to these massacres?

I know you're probably just trying to steer the discussion away from guns, but CE already answered this question very thoroughly

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:03 am

Vicsun wrote:I know you're probably just trying to steer the discussion away from guns, but CE already answered this question very thoroughly

Traditionally in SYM, when we get one opinion on a subject, no matter how thorough, we leave open the discussion because somebody else may dare to present a different opinion.

Maybe some will agree with CE, and maybe they won't. It's like the old saying has it: opinions are like nostrils. Everybody has two. Or is it one, and the saying refers to another orifice? Gee, I forget. The point is that the greatest aggregation of content on any issue won't mean that other viewpoints are less worth a listen.

In any case, to repeat:

What do these school massacres have in common?

What are contributing factors to these massacres?

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:49 am

fable wrote:What do these school massacres have in common?

What are contributing factors to these massacres?

There is one thing I have been wondering about massacres of this nature: have there ever been any massacres in schools etc. involving things like knives or swords, or even bombs? I was just wondering because I know in the UK there is a growing concern over the number of kids who take knives to school, particularly in inner city schools, and there have been a few school stabbings during school fights in recent years.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:54 am

mr_sir wrote:There is one thing I have been wondering about massacres of this nature: have there ever been any massacres in schools etc. involving things like knives or swords, or even bombs? I was just wondering because I know in the UK there is a growing concern over the number of kids who take knives to school, particularly in inner city schools, and there have been a few school stabbings during school fights in recent years.

Not in the US. I suspect this is because the killer wants to do as much damage as possible before committing suicide or being killed in turn. Similarly, they may not feel "in touch" with their victims from simply tossing a bomb. It's disgusting, but then, this an international culture (headquartered here in the US) whose entertainment media--and that includes cable news--thrives on horrific shock.

Gilliatt · Post by **Gilliatt** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:04 am

One journalist here, Pierre Foglia, brought up a good point. This is a very sad tragedy, but since so many people insist on the fact that the killer showed signs of disturbance before he commited the massacre, Foglia hopes this tragedy won't trigger a "hunting" of the solitary and different students who prefer to read a book, listen to a cd, or play video games, than to go to school parties and the College's football games.

These kind of dangerous and mad people are very few. I hope people won't start to try to find some in every school, just like some try to find terrorists at every street corner.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:11 am

mr_sir wrote:There is one thing I have been wondering about massacres of this nature: have there ever been any massacres in schools etc. involving things like knives or swords, or even bombs? I was just wondering because I know in the UK there is a growing concern over the number of kids who take knives to school, particularly in inner city schools, and there have been a few school stabbings during school fights in recent years.

Well, according to the Columbine documentary I saw last night, they two perpetrators had placed 4 propane bombs within cafeteria of the school. Also a number of Molotovc0cktails were used (didn't catch the number).
The bombs did not go off however.

So they have been used, but not successful, in this instance.

Gilliatt · Post by **Gilliatt** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:59 am

fable wrote:What do these school massacres have in common?

What are contributing factors to these massacres?

Those are essential questions, Fable, but I don't know what to add to CE's comments. I already pointed out proximity and mimesis, that were both covered in a much better way in CE's excellent posts.

I would have loved it if the news had put as much effort in answering or analyzing those two questions, than they had put in showing images of the tragedy. At least, we cannot accuse all of them, since we have been able to grab much interesting info also.

I would like to come back to another aspect mentioned in earlier posts. Some people accused the governement of using this event to capitalize on their image. Personally, I think the government have to make a statement when faced with such a tragedy. They cannot just ignore it and act like it did not happened. I don't perceive it as image capitalization, but as a duty and the decent thing to do.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:59 pm

Gilliatt wrote:One journalist here, Pierre Foglia, brought up a good point. This is a very sad tragedy, but since so many people insist on the fact that the killer showed signs of disturbance before he commited the massacre...

I've been disinclined to respond to this thread, but I would like to point out something that I thought of when I read this. The saying "hindsight is 20/20" would be rather apt in a situation such as this. It's all well and good to say that all the signs were there "after" the situation happened. It's unfair for anyone to come out and say after the fact that all the signs were there. They're always there when you know to look for them.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:57 pm

Chimaera182 wrote:I've been disinclined to respond to this thread, but I would like to point out something that I thought of when I read this. The saying "hindsight is 20/20" would be rather apt in a situation such as this. It's all well and good to say that all the signs were there "after" the situation happened. It's unfair for anyone to come out and say after the fact that all the signs were there. They're always there when you know to look for them.

*nods* I would like to add, that the videos I saw, in which the published poet/professor he had didn't really have anything unusual to say about him. The comments of thinking he was likely to go shooting people based on not removing his hat and glasses (umm, if someone told me to remove MY glasses, I'd tell them to go to hell. I'm blind without them!), were just ridiculous.

Young males who take pictures of girls without the girls permission isn't exactly a thing directly connected to serial killers either. I cannot tell you how often it's come up in situations I have been near. It happens the opposite way as well. I have had to break a girls camera to get my point across. Some people just don't think it's a big deal, and saying "Please don't take a picture of me, I don't want you to" is seen as a joke.

In fact, after throwing the camera onto the ground, stomping on it, and smashing it to itty, bitty pieces to get my point across was still insufficient to keep the girl from photographing me. After a month of telling her not to, that incident, and mutual friends telling her that I will not tolerate being photographed without express permission, she proceeded to enter my bedroom uninvited and photograph me a week after that incident. The girl isn't normal, but she's relatively harmless. She shrieks if a fly is mistreated, and lectures folks on being nice to others.

A boy who pesters girls to get attention isn't something which is an "I kill people!" type behavior either. Unfortunately, it is a rather common activity among young males. I've had to run off a number of boys who constantly hounded my ex-girlfriends and my female friends. The girls who reported that they were repeatedly contacted both said that it didn't seem that bad, and was merely irritating as well. If you go to a college campus, or high school, and poll the girls there, chances are near to every single attractive girl will admit to being repeatedly pestered by boys they aren't interested in.

Obviously the shooter had issues, and he did something that killed and hurt many people. However, the points used to say "He was definitely exhibiting behavior that could have led to this being prevented" are by large ones that have nothing to do with anything that could provide insight that a violent outburst could occur.

In fact, the little news video feed that I watched regarding his two frat boy roommates disturbed me. The little glances, smirks, and chuckles from the both of me makes me think they both made up the little line about an imaginary girlfriend, and potentially more. Simply for the sake of being singled out, stuffed onto internationally aired news shows, and say "I knew him, and here's the deal!" Having an anti-social roommate that doesn't say anything to anyone, refuses to take his hat off in class and bugs women isn't uncommon, or special.

My brother had one. He liked to wear skirts and eyeliner, and he was a fantastic graphic artist at one of the best art schools in the country. He liked Tool, and his Mac notebook, with its shiny 3-in-1 printer/scanner/fax machine. Didn't talk to anyone, and he kept to himself in his room. He didn't go shooting anyone, but he DID sing in the shower, and leave the sink a mess. He went home to visit his dear mother every weekend, didn't drink, and lectured my brother on not being religious. Dangerous stuff there.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:41 am

I haven't read this thread yet, so let me start by offering condolences to anyone who knew anyone/had any loved ones lost in the shooting.

The bit that confuses me most in the whole mess is the Jesus comparison. I've read the Bible but for the life of me I can't recall the part where Jesus goes on a shooting spree and massacres 30-odd people.

Maybe I just need to wait for Passion of the Christ part 2 to come out...

Grombag · Post by **Grombag** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:10 am

mr_sir wrote:There is one thing I have been wondering about massacres of this nature: have there ever been any massacres in schools etc. involving things like knives or swords, or even bombs? I was just wondering because I know in the UK there is a growing concern over the number of kids who take knives to school, particularly in inner city schools, and there have been a few school stabbings during school fights in recent years.

Here in the Netherlands we have a few of these things, but iirc they where not massacres as seen in the US (just a few victems per case). If I read the artikels correctly (reread them quickly just now) all victems survived. I do have some links, but they're in Dutch so I won't post them whitout explicit request.

TheAmazingOopah · Post by **TheAmazingOopah** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:10 am

Mr Spanky wrote:I haven't read this thread yet, so let me start by offering condolences to anyone who knew anyone/had any loved ones lost in the shooting.

The bit that confuses me most in the whole mess is the Jesus comparison. I've read the Bible but for the life of me I can't recall the part where Jesus goes on a shooting spree and massacres 30-odd people.
Maybe I just need to wait for Passion of the Christ part 2 to come out...

Well, I think you can find the comparison with Jesus already in the first movie; if what is shown in The Passion of the Christ is accurate, it definitely shows that Jesus had to go through a lot of suffering before dying. I don't think that Jesus and Cho shared the same cause (attoning for the sins of all humans) but I think that Cho made the comparison with Jesus Christ because he felt like he was doing the same ammount of suffering. He seemed to be physically fine, but he obvious was very disturbed on the inside. He must have experienced a great deal of mental pain, which he also mentioned in the video, feeling puked at and badly treated by the ellite rich kids, with their sports cars, Gucci bags, etc. etc. And even though that feeling of extreme mistreatment and loneliness very, very probably didn't even come near the pain that a convicted man like Jesus Christ must have felt 2000 years ago after being whipped to a bloody mess and having nails driven through his hands and feet, a lot of depressed people tend to be very self-obsessed and emotional, and are very capable of exagerating emotions like anger and sorrow to a very high level. He probably wasn't able to put things into perspective, and just wasn't thinking rational anymore when he made the JC comparison. I don't know if the Jesus comparison went as far for him to green flag the killing of all these people, maybe it did, and maybe it didn't. All I know is that he said that he decided to do this because "the rich elite made him do it" and because he "wanted to do this for all his brothers, sisters and children". Maybe he somehow had the thought of "sparing" his family from all the rich snobs that he knew, that that was his mission? I don't know what went on his head excactly, but I don't think that looking for rational reasoning is in place here.

sparky_kat · Post by **sparky_kat** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:09 pm

i thought i would put my thoughts in on this

this is a terrible ordeal, my condolences to any who knew any victims

this is not the first mass school murder, and sadly will probably not be the last either

as far as these mass shootings go, i have noticed that the majority of the shooters were someway disturbed, either mentally, sexually, physically, ect... i agree alot with what bloodstalker said toward the beginning of this how that the killers personal lives reflected on their actions, such as abandonment, abuse, ect may have had alot to do with the shooters 'snap' and started to kill people.

and as far as gun control, i believe whole heartedly in it!!! im not saying get rid of guns, but even stricter checks when trying to purchase for one, like also along with the criminal check, they should do a mental history check also to see if the person has ever been in an instatution (sp), ever had extensive mental health therapy ect ect... it is very disturbing to know that someone with no criminal history, but a history of mental health issues can purchase a weapon. also maybe even limit the number of firearms on can own along with mandatory registration, i know this may upset some people, but even if you love guns, why do have the need to own a ton of guns, 10, 20 30, ect, i dont see any need to own that many guns. i would be scared to know that that my neighbor owns 10 or 20 guns, my first thought is why do you *need* to have so many, and i say *need* because you know you just had to have more guns if you are this type of person who does have a lot. if you want a gun for protection, 1 would do it, you wouldnt need an entire arsinol(sp). i personally feel that that the only people who would need more that 1 gun is hunters and farmers with preditor issues (ie wolves, wild dogs and bears ect)

with the rights to bear arms argument, we must remember when it was wrote, back when this country was still forming and we didnt have the protection agencies we have now, back then it was the frontier days, not high culture city life as of today. if i was to have lived back in that ere when that amendment was wrote, by all means i would probably want my family to own a gun, but this day and age what we are all supposed to be civilized adults who know right from wrong, i dont see the need for one... i feel that the huge metal baseball bat i have under my bed would be enough. and i only have that because i am a single parent of a young child, if i had a man in the house, i most likely woulnd have the bat. i personally dont have a gun, i have family members that do, but they are all hunters and own only rifles, here is a little personal story, my uncle, who does own a gun being a hunter, did have his house broke into, but he never used his gun, instead he was able to scare of the would be theif by shouting and by using an airhorn (i dont know why he had one on his dresser but good thing he did) and waking everyone up in the area, the thief didnt want to be around with a ton of people up and being able to see him. so that are different ways to "protect" yourself and scare off would be criminals without resorting to weapons. i did ask my uncle why he didnt get his gun out and he replied "i didnt even think about it, probably because i dont think i could ever shoot a human being"

we all also must realize that we have our own personal optinions when it comes to subjects like these and try not to degrade anothers feelings or beliefs.